Breaking the speed limit whilst overtaking

[dombooth]

Try TSRGD. (6) (d).

Thanks for that. I wonder why it isn't mentioned in the Highway Code?

Possibly because if you put everything into the highway code you'd need a HGV to deliver the book.

Dom

[Gareth]

Dave's derogatory tone towards younger members is innapropriate and crosses the line between a difference of opinion, and a personal attack.

Would you have been happier if he had said drivers with relatively little experience? I think that is probably what he meant. When you have been driving as long as Dave has, and have covered as many miles in a similar wide range of conditions, then perhaps your view may more closely align with Dave's. In any case, from his vantage pretty much all of us here are whippersnappers.

[fungus]

I think fungus might have chosen that particular roundabout specifically because the layout doesn't make it impractical for two vehicles to go round side by side (assuming the drivers cooperate). From the overhead view and looking on Streetview there appears to be plenty of physical space for two cars to take the route fungus describes side by side. Whether it would be wise to do so is a different question...

To answer fungus's question, I'd be quite prepared to drive over the paint to avoid an accident.

I asked this question because about four years ago I had a pupil who had failed his test prior to having lessons with me on that very roundabout in exactly the situation I described. In this instance the examiner grabbed the steering wheel and steered the car over the centre marking. This is exactly the sort of situation that could/would cause a learner a problem because of the wording in the HC, and the fact that their instructor would probably emphasise that they must pass around the central marking as per the HC.

As for myself. I would definitely drive across the paint to avoid an accident.

[MGF]

I find it hard to believe a court would not accept a defence of necessity where there was a genuine need to avoid an accident not caused by one's own carelessness. In other words even though "to avoid an accident" is not in the legislation it is likely to be implied.

[zadocbrown]

I could only bring myself to read half the thread....

Surely it is very simple - if you sacrifice legality you run a greater or lesser risk of prosecution. If you sacrifice safety you run a greater or lesser risk of physical damage. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[jameslb101]

I could only bring myself to read half the thread....

Surely it is very simple - if you sacrifice legality you run a greater or lesser risk of prosecution. If you sacrifice safety you run a greater or lesser risk of physical damage. You pays your money and takes your choice.

With the caveat that one of those has potential for repercussion on a 3rd party, the other's negative impact is limited solely to the driver.

[waremark]

I nearly crashed today in the sort of situation envisaged by the lost thread title - if I am posting in the correct thread!

I was about to overtake uphill on a single-carriageway with two lanes uphill and one lane downhill. There was a van in lane 1 following a heavy, at a close but constant distance. I was intending to overtake in lane 2; at a pure guess my closing speed could have been about 20 mph. There was a car coming down the hill towards me. Just as I reached the back of the van, it indicated right, and simultaneously started to move right towards me. Rightly or wrongly (I will never know, but I now think possibly wrongly) I felt that I was too close with too high a closing speed to abort the overtake and was committed to continue the overtake. I was covering the headlamp flasher and the horn, as I do in such situations. I used lights and horn, moved to the right side of my lane as far as possible without inconveniencing the car downhill towards me, and pushed the accelerator to the floor. Helpfully, I had an automatic transmission which kicked down, and I completed the overtake. Next time I looked in the mirror, the van was comfortably back in lane 1, and a car which had been following me in lane 2 was overtaking it.

I almost certainly exceeded the speed limit, although I did not look at the speedo during the whole situation. That was certainly the least of my worries.

What should I have done differently? I could of course have decided not to overtake, but I certainly would not have wanted to continue up the hill at the pace of the heavy when there was an overtaking lane available. I should have given more thought to the lack of options in view of the car downhill towards me, and I should have been more focused on considering up to what point I could safely abort the overtake if the van moved out. I don't think it would have been appropriate to use lights or horn in advance (the car has daylight running lights - I think it is obvious the van driver did not look in his door mirror before starting to pull out). In spite of this being a near miss, it is quite possible that I would do the same thing again. I was alone in the car, so there is no-one else available to give an independent view.

[dombooth]

I nearly crashed today in the sort of situation envisaged by the lost thread title - if I am posting in the correct thread!

I was about to overtake uphill on a single-carriageway with two lanes uphill and one lane downhill. There was a van in lane 1 following a heavy, at a close but constant distance. I was intending to overtake in lane 2; at a pure guess my closing speed could have been about 20 mph. There was a car coming down the hill towards me. Just as I reached the back of the van, it indicated right, and simultaneously started to move right towards me. Rightly or wrongly (I will never know, but I now think possibly wrongly) I felt that I was too close with too high a closing speed to abort the overtake and was committed to continue the overtake. I was covering the headlamp flasher and the horn, as I do in such situations. I used lights and horn, moved to the right side of my lane as far as possible without inconveniencing the car downhill towards me, and pushed the accelerator to the floor. Helpfully, I had an automatic transmission which kicked down, and I completed the overtake. Next time I looked in the mirror, the van was comfortably back in lane 1, and a car which had been following me in lane 2 was overtaking it.

I almost certainly exceeded the speed limit, although I did not look at the speedo during the whole situation. That was certainly the least of my worries.

What should I have done differently? I could of course have decided not to overtake, but I certainly would not have wanted to continue up the hill at the pace of the heavy when there was an overtaking lane available. I should have given more thought to the lack of options in view of the car downhill towards me, and I should have been more focused on considering up to what point I could safely abort the overtake if the van moved out. I don't think it would have been appropriate to use lights or horn in advance (the car has daylight running lights - I think it is obvious the van driver did not look in his door mirror before starting to pull out). In spite of this being a near miss, it is quite possible that I would do the same thing again. I was alone in the car, so there is no-one else available to give an independent view.

If you had just got to the back of the van I would've said brake would be quicker than continuing all the way past it as it's coming your way.

Dom

[waremark]

If you had just got to the back of the van I would've said brake would be quicker than continuing all the way past it as it's coming your way.

Dom

It's a question of the closing speed as well as the relative positions. Clearly if you were just behind the van but with a closing speed of 30 mph (say him at 30 and me at 60) then it would be too late to brake. I will never know whether I could have aborted safely. The moral is to try to make that decision in advance - which I sometimes do, but not on this occasion. When I am using the cruise control on a multi-lane road and am overtaking someone who might have a reason to change lanes I sometimes consciously move my right foot from hovering over the brake to hovering over the accelerator at the moment when I think I have become committed to continue the overtake. It is a difficult decision even when you are thinking about it. Think about this if you ever come up behind someone on a multi-lane road with a significant closing speed.

By the way Dom, thanks for reading my long post!

[dombooth]

If you had just got to the back of the van I would've said brake would be quicker than continuing all the way past it as it's coming your way.

Dom

It's a question of the closing speed as well as the relative positions. Clearly if you were just behind the van but with a closing speed of 30 mph (say him at 30 and me at 60) then it would be too late to brake. I will never know whether I could have aborted safely. The moral is to try to make that decision in advance - which I sometimes do, but not on this occasion. When I am using the cruise control on a multi-lane road and am overtaking someone who might have a reason to change lanes I sometimes consciously move my right foot from hovering over the brake to hovering over the accelerator at the moment when I think I have become committed to continue the overtake. It is a difficult decision even when you are thinking about it. Think about this if you ever come up behind someone on a multi-lane road with a significant closing speed.

By the way Dom, thanks for reading my long post!

Yes if you was going 30mph faster then yeah I'd say just keep going as it would be quicker but with a 20mph difference (depending on how quick Mr. Van Man is moving towards me) I think I would brake and make good use of the horn.

You're welcome btw.

Dom

[jcochrane]

At some point a commitment to the overtake has always to be made. Braking is then by deffinition rarely a viable option but more acceleration is. From what you describe Mark it sounds like you took the only practical option available to you. It is quite likely that your actions may have avoided an unpleasant outcome.

[dombooth]

At some point a commitment to the overtake has always to be made. Braking is then by deffinition rarely a viable option but more acceleration is.

But surely it depends what car you're driving?

Dom

[jcochrane]

At some point a commitment to the overtake has always to be made. Braking is then by deffinition rarely a viable option but more acceleration is.

But surely it depends what car you're driving?

Dom

I guess your comment was tongue in cheek bearing in mind what you have told us about your own car. But it is important that the decision to overtake, or not, does take into consideration the car being driven. When fortunate enough to drive a nice powerful Porsche there are many more possible overtakes that can be taken safely and easily as the extra acceleration is there if required. Like you Dom, my own car is very low powered and so the overtakes I would take in a Porsche are just not possible. Having said that I do get more satisfaction out of the overtakes in my own car as they will require a higher level of work in planning, precision and execution.

If Playtent is still lurking here he will probably pop up and say I don't do overtakes.

[TripleS]

At some point a commitment to the overtake has always to be made. Braking is then by deffinition rarely a viable option but more acceleration is.

But surely it depends what car you're driving?

Dom

Aye, that it does. Mark usually drives powerful cars, which give more options for dealing with unpleasant surprises, whereas with my 90 bhp machinery I'd have been confined to braking and steering, and in the situation described would probably have made contact with the van.

I know Mark mentioned that his car has daytime running lights (which I don't have), but I sometimes favour the use of headlights on the approach to an overtake, but put them on early; not just a quick flash as you're about to overtake.

Best wishes all......including the very young whippersnappers,
Dave.

[TripleS]

At some point a commitment to the overtake has always to be made. Braking is then by deffinition rarely a viable option but more acceleration is.

But surely it depends what car you're driving?

Dom

I guess your comment was tongue in cheek bearing in mind what you have told us about your own car. But it is important that the decision to overtake, or not, does take into consideration the car being driven. When fortunate enough to drive a nice powerful Porsche there are many more possible overtakes that can be taken safely and easily as the extra acceleration is there if required. Like you Dom, my own car is very low powered and so the overtakes I would take in a Porsche are just not possible. Having said that I do get more satisfaction out of the overtakes in my own car as they will require a higher level of work in planning, precision and execution.

People with powerful cars and lots of acceleration capacity have it easy really.

Best wishes all,
Dave.