Is advanced driving just a matter of training?

[TripleS]

100% concentration (attention) is not possible. Leastways it isn't possible to maintain such a state over, say, twenty minutes at the very best. Trying to maintain "too" high of a level of attention will result in an earlier, steeper "drop" following it. Our only choice is to drive with a high but reasonable level of attention focused at driving, and choose to increase/decrease it depending on the conditions. Within such a normal level of attention, the drop is experienced after 40 to 50 minutes (much like at a class in school), and that is part of the reason why I recommend my trainees to perform hourly breaks in drives of two hours and more.

It is interesting that many (advanced) tests in the UK last for approx 90 minutes.

Mere experience in driving, even outside of an advanced driving tuition, offers the human mind (which works like a muscle in training) a chance to synchronise itself with the unique cognitive demands of driving and allows to take in more usable information based on a given level of attention. i.e. we can either adapt our attention level to take in more information, or increase our analitic ability of making more out of the given amount of data. The exact blend of the two is where every driver differs from the other.

Would this be similar to having different kinds of concentration. The more adept you get at driving at a particular level the more you can apply, what I would call, 'relaxed concentration'?
Regards
Brian Haddon

Thank you, Brian: that last bit gets my vote.

Surely what we want is a style that produces a satisfactory level of concentration on the important issues, and in a form that is maintainable comfortably for long periods, preferably aided by a 15-20 minute break every two hours in a really long journey.

I still can't go along with the notion that 100% concentration on the driving task is necessary at all times.

When I had my part time job delivering new cars I never knew what time I would get home, so I used to ring Eileen when I was about 15 mintes away and let her know how I was getting on. There is a section of road on the A169 that includes a long straight section almost a mile long, slightly uphill and with one farm entrance about halfway along on the right. That road was virtually free of other vehicles at the times I was travelling, so I felt it was quite reasonable to pick up the phone, press a couple of buttons and say "Hiya gorgeous, I should be back in about 15 minutes" or words to that effect. The whole thing took no more than about 15 seconds.

Now then, which of you '100% concentration at all times' people (who I trust are considerably better than average drivers) really believe you can't divert sufficient attention away from the driving task to manage that - or similar brief distractions - safely?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gromit37]

Oh Dave, you had to light the fuse didn't you? Where's my tin hat? You'll be personally responsible for all the worn out keyboards, calloused fingers, cold cups of tea, sleepless nights and major apoplexy generated by that question.

Does Dave get older and wiser or just older and more mischevious?

[TripleS]

Oh Dave, you had to light the fuse didn't you? Where's my tin hat? You'll be personally responsible for all the worn out keyboards, calloused fingers, cold cups of tea, sleepless nights and major apoplexy generated by that question.

Does Dave get older and wiser or just older and more mischevious?

Older? Yes.

Wiser? I don't know, I'm not making much of a claim about that.

More mischievous? Yes, it looks like it. It's my way of countering the increasing crap content of the modern world.

Best wishes all,
Advanced sceptic.

[playtent]

Dave

I know when I was training my concentration was 100% all the time for periods of upto 2 hours. After a days driving I was knackered and have never been in bed so early as I was on my advanced course!

The only down time was in speed limits where you could maybe have a little chat for a few minutes and then national speed limit, no more talking, job in hand.

Now with everyday driving, no one is going to concentrate 100% all the time, especially on familar roads, as in your own example. This explains why the majority of accidents happen within 3 miles of where you live!

Regards

[TripleS]

Dave

I know when I was training my concentration was 100% all the time for periods of up to 2 hours. After a days driving I was knackered and have never been in bed so early as I was on my advanced course!

The only down time was in speed limits where you could maybe have a little chat for a few minutes and then national speed limit, no more talking, job in hand.

Now with everyday driving, no one is going to concentrate 100% all the time, especially on familar roads, as in your own example. This explains why the majority of accidents happen within 3 miles of where you live!

Regards

OK, but there's a considerable difference (as you recognise) between the work load of a police driver in high performance mode, and the demands on a normal driver going about his everyday business. So far as NSL areas are concerned, even then I think a decently competent driver should be able to cope with brief distractions from the basic task of controlling the vehicle.

Incidentally, when I said I expected to be home in about 15 minutes, I was well outside your three mile limit, and therefore pretty safe. Most of my mishaps during the past 53 years have been well outside the three mile limit.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Astraist]

Now with everyday driving, no one is going to concentrate 100% all the time, especially on familar roads, as in your own example. This explains why the majority of accidents happen within 3 miles of where you live!

Regards

There is another, a priori reason behind this: People naturally drive from their home and back to it, thus absolutely spending more time in the proximity of their residence relative to any other place on the road, and being more exposed to collisions in that range.

[TripleS]

Now with everyday driving, no one is going to concentrate 100% all the time, especially on familar roads, as in your own example. This explains why the majority of accidents happen within 3 miles of where you live!

Regards

There is another, a priori reason behind this: People naturally drive from their home and back to it, thus absolutely spending more time in the proximity of their residence relative to any other place on the road, and being more exposed to collisions in that range.

Quite right, and very relevant. Statistics can be so misleading.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

There is another, a priori reason behind this: People naturally drive from their home and back to it, thus absolutely spending more time in the proximity of their residence relative to any other place on the road, and being more exposed to collisions in that range.

While that's possibly valid it really depends on the relative distance travelled while further away, but nevertheless local roads are normally most familiar and maybe drivers are more likely to relax when close to home. I distinctly remember when feeling very tired and nearing the end of a long journey home telling myself to be more careful as I'd look very foolish if I had an accident so near home!

[playtent]

People do relax close to home and go in 'auto pilot' mode because you don't need to concentrate on directions, corners because you know it so well.

I generally find that if I try to recall in detail the last part of my journey home, although it's the most recent its more difficult than recalling an earlier part of the journey on unfamiliar roads.

I think I go into auto pilot when I know the roads really well, especially if I'm tired.


Cheers

[daz6215]

One thing though...

...after all although I know I've improved in just 3 months from IAM to DSA part 2...

...I may be reading the above wrongly but I would disagree if you think DSA part 2 is above IAM.

Just out of interest, which element of the IAM test is more demanding that the DSA part 2? apart from the obvious difference in styles, which are not hard to achieve if you are competent!

[Gareth]

which element of the IAM test is more demanding that the DSA part 2?

Martin didn't claim it was more demanding, just that it was 'above'. I take his meaning to be that the IAM test is above the DSA part 2 test in a similar fashion to the way 'A' levels were above 'O' levels.

Pardon me if I am wrong but I understood that the DSA part 2 requires the exact same approach to driving as that of learner drivers, the requirements and the complexities being exactly the same, and the only difference being the maximum number of minors allowable during the test. On the other hand the IAM test requires more from the candidate than merely being able to pass the standard test with a few minors.

[daz6215]

which element of the IAM test is more demanding that the DSA part 2?

Martin didn't claim it was more demanding, just that it was 'above'. I take his meaning to be that the IAM test is above the DSA part 2 test in a similar fashion to the way 'A' levels were above 'O' levels.

Pardon me if I am wrong but I understood that the DSA part 2 requires the exact same approach to driving as that of learner drivers, the requirements and the complexities being exactly the same, and the only difference being the maximum number of minors allowable during the test. On the other hand the IAM test requires more from the candidate than merely being able to pass the standard test with a few minors.

Can you give me some examples of what the 'more' is ?

[Russ_H]

which element of the IAM test is more demanding that the DSA part 2?

Martin didn't claim it was more demanding, just that it was 'above'. I take his meaning to be that the IAM test is above the DSA part 2 test in a similar fashion to the way 'A' levels were above 'O' levels.

Pardon me if I am wrong but I understood that the DSA part 2 requires the exact same approach to driving as that of learner drivers, the requirements and the complexities being exactly the same, and the only difference being the maximum number of minors allowable during the test. On the other hand the IAM test requires more from the candidate than merely being able to pass the standard test with a few minors.

Perhaps I could try to help, as I used to conduct various DSA tests, including those for Part 2.

The L test and the Part 2 test are worlds apart. In an L test, it is a pass if fifteen or fewer
driver (minor) faults are committed, as long as there are no serious or dangerous faults,
of course. In a Part 2, there must be no more than six driver faults (or any serious or
dangerous faults). The key point, however, is that driver faults are assessed quite
differently on these two tests. A Part 2 test is assessed at a much higher standard than
an L test. Many faults recorded for Part 2 tests would be ignored on an L test.

Another illustration of this is the B + E test, for those who wish to tow certain vehicle and
trailer combinations. These tests are carried out at LGV/PCV test centres. The standard
required on a B + E test is that expected of a professional driver. It is not simply an L test
with a trailer. As a result, many B + E candidates fail on their general driving, not on any
trailer-specific aspect of their test.

The standard for a competition drive, to become an examiner, is higher again, but not simply
in the number of driver faults that may be incurred.

In an L test, the examiner is simply assessing whether the candidate is ready to share the
roads with the rest of us, unaccompanied. They do not need to be brilliant: they simply need
to demonstrate that they have reached a rudimentary standard. In a Part 2, the examiner is
looking for a smooth, brisk drive at a high standard, with observation and systematic mirror
use being high on the list of requirements. Manoeuvring accuracy with thorough, all-round
observation is needed. This will include a left reverse, a right reverse, a turn-in-the-road,
and a reverse park, either into a bay, or parallel with the kerb.

I am not able to comment on IAM tests, as I have neither taken nor conducted them. If you
would like any further clarification, please ask.

[Horse]

which element of the IAM test is more demanding that the DSA part 2?

Martin didn't claim it was more demanding, just that it was 'above'. I take his meaning to be that the IAM test is above the DSA part 2 test in a similar fashion to the way 'A' levels were above 'O' levels.

Pardon me if I am wrong but I understood that the DSA part 2 requires the exact same approach to driving as that of learner drivers, the requirements and the complexities being exactly the same, and the only difference being the maximum number of minors allowable during the test. On the other hand the IAM test requires more from the candidate than merely being able to pass the standard test with a few minors.

Can you give me some examples of what the 'more' is ?

Nope

But I can tell you than an ex-trafpol I know said Pt.2 was tougher to pass than his police drives - partly because they weren't simply decided on error marking.

[martine]

DSA ADI PT 2 vs IAM...

I would suggest the DSA test is more about being an extremely good 'normal' driver if that makes sense. If you're teaching novices you need to know (and be able to demonstrate if necessary) the techniques and procedures expected to pass the L-test. I wouldn't call an ADI an advanced driver necessarily...just good and consistent.

The extra skills I would expect from an IAM advanced driver would include being more progressive with greatly extended observation, rev-matched gear changes, bold positioning (both to keep away from danger but also to maintain a view), good use of the car's rev range. I don't believe these are expected for the Pt. 2.