All season and winter tyres

[MGF]

Driving on untreated roads or inadequately treated roads, for starters.

[michael769]

Driving on untreated roads or inadequately treated roads, for starters.

As I think I may have mentioned in my driving the only untreated roads I drive on i the 100m from my house, and than only on 10 out of 365 days in a typical year. (Maybe 20 days max in exceptional conditions). As a narrow residential road with many parked cars even on black ice I have no occasion to find myself running out of grip.

I accept that others will have different driving needs and may be able to justify the extra costs, but for myself, and I suspect a majority of drivers I do not think it adds up.

I would not claim my experience means that winter tires are unsuitable for everyone, but conversely I do object to the suggestion that just because they work for some people they must therefore make sense for everyone with no regard to people different driving patterns and needs.

Trying to promote them as a good idea for everyone without qualification, risks encouraging people to apend money on something that does not meet their needs, and simply plays into the hands of the tyre industry who will benefit from flogging more expensive tyres and the extra fitting charges.

[Gareth]

Driving up to the limits of your vehicle has no place on the public road network

To bring some light into this part of the discussion perhaps you and/or Silk could give examples of what you mean here, since presumably they are different from the examples I gave.

[Gareth]

You can easily experience the limit of grip when you brake. You can also do so while maintaining a constant speed in heavy rain on a motorway as you pass though very slightly deeper standing water and start to aquaplane. You can do so driving normally on icy roads after a hard frost. Similarly on snow, on compressed snow, and on ice.

Since the concept seems to be causing difficulty I'll give some examples.

A few days ago we had some snow and I took the opportunity to go shopping in our main car, a 9 year old VAG diesel estate, fwd of course, fitted with Vredestein winter tyres. I did a low speed brake test, in second gear, at about 20 mph, to calibrate my knowledge of the conditions, and at the end of braking the ABS triggered. This was a clear loss of grip situation since without the ABS the front wheels would have locked. It didn't really matter of course, since locked wheels would have served the purpose equally well. It let me know that the braking was pretty effective but there were still limits about which I needed to be aware. These limits were different to that of the previous day, which was the whole point of the exercise. Better to find the limit of grip in a safe situation rather than when approaching the junction at the main road.

The following day the snow had been compacted but many roads hadn't been gritted in our area. I went out in our other car, a 22 year old petrol rwd fitted with Vredestein all-season tyres. I hadn't driven this car for ages so I was wary as I knew that the accelerator pedal is extremely light, that there is quite a lot of power being sent to the rear wheels, that the all-season tyres don't provide quite as much grip as the winter tyres on the other car, and that even with an almost perfect weight distribution the weight over the driven wheels is a lot less than that in our other car. As I pulled away the rear wheels span a little making the back of the car slew very slightly. Here was a loss of grip, at very low speed, in a safe environment causing no danger to others. I was expecting this loss of grip, so lifted off immediately to remove the cause. I purposefully did the same twice more to remind myself how little throttle movement was enough to trigger it and, to be honest, because it was fun, and then I continued my journey without incident. I had adjusted my use of the throttle by then.

Some years ago I was working away from home and, on a late summer Friday afternoon, was heading back in pouring rain. The rain was bouncing off the road. The car had Goodyear F1 GSD2 tyres fitted with good tread. I was on a fairly straight and level dual-carriageway with two lanes in each direction, following a heavy truck at about 40 mph. I thought I could go a little quicker so, when it was safe, moved into lane two and tried to accelerate gently past. I found the front end lifted slightly, which felt quite uncomfortable; I was experiencing a loss of grip well below the 70 mph speed limit for that section of road, probably at less than 50 mph. I lifted off the accelerator, eased back, and returned to lane one following the truck. A little later on, when the rain had eased a bit, I tried again and I was able to pass without any problems.

[Silk]

Driving up to the limits of your vehicle has no place on the public road network

To bring some light into this part of the discussion perhaps you and/or Silk could give examples of what you mean here, since presumably they are different from the examples I gave.

It means exactly what it says.

It's pretty much impossible to lose grip on a modern car if driven correctly. By correctly, I mean being able to stop safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear. I doubt there are many occasions where a modern car can be driven up to the its limits before other considerations, such as other road users, takes precedence and forces a reduction in speed.

In my 30 plus years and over a million miles of driving, I don't remember ever being in a skid or triggering ABS/TC/ESP unintentionally. When I judge there's likely to be less grip, such as in wet/snow/ice/mud, I adjust my driving accordingly. Doesn't everyone do that?

[michael769]

MY comments on your examples:

1) In this case you have only assessed the grip at a specific point it tells you nothing about the grip anywhere else. As in my experience conditions on side roads are radically different to those on main roads in cold weather I am not clear how this experience would have informed your perceptions of grip on those main roads. In any event I am genuininly unsure how skidding or relying on electronic aids to prevent a skid helps you to judge if you can stop your vehicle whilst maintaining control and avoiding an ABS activation (which in adverse conditions drastically extends stopping distances and this is to be avoided where possible).

2) In this case you say you were expecting the wheel spin, so I have to ask why you chose to deliberately induce a skid on a public road? And then having done so repeat this for "fun"? While you may have believed that this was safe the slewing tells me that you did not have the vehicle under proper control and were 1 misjudgment and a little bad luck away from causing a tragedy.

3) This account is IMO a good example of how unpredictable and inconsistent things can be on the public road and how situations that you perceive to be safe can turn out to be the opposite, and how little control you can have over the situation leaving you having to use up whatever safety margin you had - in this case a safety margin that existed mostly due to you having the luck to have been starting from behind a slow moving truck.

I am not sure how these example support the case for the use of winter tyres, other than to support my already formed suspicion that your desire for them is to allow you to further push the envelope in conditions where most drivers would be seeking to do the opposite.

[kfae8959]

It's pretty much impossible to lose grip on a modern car if driven correctly. By correctly, I mean being able to stop safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

It strikes me that some of the things that could cause a reduction in grip between tyre and road might not be visible, at any distance. Substances like diesel, leaf mulch, or mud can sometimes not be seen, and (while I don't claim it happens every day) it seems to me that anyone can come across the limits of grip, even well within the safety of the Golden Rule. So, like others, I try to be feeling available grip all the time.

David

[trashbat]

I am not sure how these example support the case for the use of winter tyres, other than to support my already formed suspicion that your desire for them is to allow you to further push the envelope in conditions where most drivers would be seeking to do the opposite.

I think that judgement is unjustified. To me (and to several very experienced drivers I know), the purpose of winter or all-season tyres is to enable one to drive in conditions where summer tyres would leave me stranded. I'm not willing to invest the sort of money necessary to have two sets of wheels and tyres but the extra expense of fitting all-season tyres, when I needed new tyres anyway, was minimal.

Personally, I am aiming to push the envelope, if by envelope you mean the overall package (i.e. what I can do in the conditions), rather than something specific like the performance limits of the car. It's the same reason why I have a car rather than travelling everywhere by pushbike.

I have more issue with this:

2) In this case you say you were expecting the wheel spin, so I have to ask why you chose to deliberately induce a skid on a public road? And then having done so repeat this for "fun"? While you may have believed that this was safe the slewing tells me that you did not have the vehicle under proper control and were 1 misjudgment and a little bad luck away from causing a tragedy.

Do you not think you should familiarise yourself with your vehicle's characteristics before you discover them unexpectedly? Otherwise how do you know that your estimation of a safe speed is exactly that, except lack of accidents to date?

I probably did the same as Gareth. I found out what it would take to initiate traction control (a lot) and ABS (not a lot) on my car. I sometimes do this in the warm and dry too, e.g. trying to determine both the emergency stopping distance and my own behaviours during that procedure. I do it on public roads too, because that is where it's relevant. This is not to say that I endanger others by doing it.

[ScoobyChris]

In my 30 plus years and over a million miles of driving, I don't remember ever being in a skid or triggering ABS/TC/ESP unintentionally. When I judge there's likely to be less grip, such as in wet/snow/ice/mud, I adjust my driving accordingly. Doesn't everyone do that?

I have significantly less driving experience (and also don't bother with winter tyres) and I'm wondering if you can elaborate on any techniques you use for how to adjust your driving and knowing that it is well within the available grip (or is it simply drawing on past experience)?

Chris

[trashbat]

It's pretty much impossible to lose grip on a modern car if driven correctly. By correctly, I mean being able to stop safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

It strikes me that some of the things that could cause a reduction in grip between tyre and road might not be visible, at any distance. Substances like diesel, leaf mulch, or mud can sometimes not be seen, and (while I don't claim it happens every day) it seems to me that anyone can come across the limits of grip, even well within the safety of the Golden Rule. So, like others, I try to be feeling available grip all the time.

David

Indeed. Or ice.

I will ask explicitly this time: what is your approximate stopping distance, at any speed you care to choose, travelling down an icy hill on summer tyres?

[Custom24]

..avoiding an ABS activation (which in adverse conditions drastically extends stopping distances and this is to be avoided where possible).

What do you mean by adverse conditions? I'm guessing based on your attitude towards experimentation on the public road that you've either had experience of such conditions on the track, or you're quoting what you've read elsewhere.

My experience is that I cannot stop any sooner than ABS on hard packed snow by use of threshold braking, and that even though it may feel as though I have, it's illusory. I've not got lots of experience with threshold braking, but I had several attempts and could never beat ABS.

The only kind of situations where ABS might increase braking distance I can think of are those where having the build up of snow in front of the wheels would help stop you. But in a normal modern car where ABS cannot be easily deactivated, I don't see how you could achieve this, since braking below the ABS activation threshold on a slippery snowy surface is unlikely to cause this pile up effect.

[Silk]

In my 30 plus years and over a million miles of driving, I don't remember ever being in a skid or triggering ABS/TC/ESP unintentionally. When I judge there's likely to be less grip, such as in wet/snow/ice/mud, I adjust my driving accordingly. Doesn't everyone do that?

I have significantly less driving experience (and also don't bother with winter tyres) and I'm wondering if you can elaborate on any techniques you use for how to adjust your driving and knowing that it is well within the available grip (or is it simply drawing on past experience)?

Chris

Of course, experience does play a part, although you could argue that it's not possible to know the limits of grip without taking it to the limit. I just know that, in normal driving, I don't really worry about things like handling (I'm not sure you need to on the M4!).

When I get the opportunity, such as on a deserted road, I give it a go with the brakes just to see how quickly I can stop on both dry and wet roads. If I get an opportunity to take the car off road, then I'll see how far I have to push it before the car loses grip. To be honest, I'm a pretty sedate driver, probably down to being a bit chicken, which is probably not a bad thing.

[jcochrane]

I believe safety is 99% driver ability and 1% driver aids. A good driver, in my opinion, knows the limits of grip and drives accordingly, and even more so if he's not sure. I suspect the insurance companies believe this as well.

Before someone accuses me of only driving to the shops, I'd like to point out that I've still been averaging 200 miles a day, even in this recent cold snap. I simply took it easy when I wasn't driving on treated roads, of which there have been very few on the routes I've been driving. From my house in South Gloucestershire, I've been to Heathrow, Lincoln, Nottingham, Birmingham, Oxford, Barnstaple, Portsmouth, Pembrokeshire, etc. The weather hasn't been a problem for my "normal" tyres.

I'll be saving my £1000 for something else more worthwhile.

I still don't understand how you manage get summer tyres to grip when snow, ice, gradient of the road (in these conditions) etc. is such that where the compound of the tyre is no longer able to gain purchase to go forward, backward, stopping or steering without resorting to some form of aid, eg. auto socks, or changing to a tyre compound designed to help in these conditions.

I genuinely don't know how I can do defeat tyre technology and would welcome enlightenment. I already know the trick of rocking the car forward and backward which can sometimes help if stuck on the flat, or on a gradient allowing the car to roll onto another surface that may be better and there are others but this does not actually address the basic question where the compound can not gain a purchase on the snow or ice.

There is also a little known trick that might work if a softer tyre would help. It comes from motor racing and a cheat that I have come across in my official capacity. Apart from special products or heating a tyre the fumes from a can of Coke, it is said, can soften the compound. Wears of quickly but can give a competitor the edge of the line. Never tried it but I used to check the tyre compound softness in the holding paddock.

[TripleS]

Post deleted.

[TripleS]

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