Observer Insurance

[michael769]

I have seen a few folks speculating about the insurance situation w.r.t. advanced driving insurance and training, so it may be helpful to explain my own employer's policy in this regard. (My apologies for those of you who already know all this).

Please note there is no industry wide policy in this area. Some insurers take a much harsher line than we do. To ensure that you have the insurance cover you think you do it is advisable to make sure that your insurer is happy with your use of your vehicle.

Observed drives as an associate

This comes under the category of receiving driving tuition and may not always be covered by Social Domestic and Pleasure (some insurers do some don't).

In general we would not ask an already licensed driver undergoing additional driving tuition for an additional premium. While we would ask our insured to notify us so that we can update the policy records, as there is no extra permium, and we recognise that many drivers would not be aware that they might not be covered, we would not use the failure to notify us as a reason to disallow cover provided we are happy that the driver had not intended to mislead of defraud us.

Demo drives as an observer

The important thing is to realise that your group is a charity and when you drive in the name of your group ie. as an observer, you are using your car for charitable purposes and not for SDP. This includes both observed runs but also travelling to and from a meeting point with an associate.

When using your car for charitable purposes we will require insured to have cover for business use. Like many insurers we will not require any additional premium for such use of the vehicle (we apply an "business use not for reward" endorsement on the policy).

Again we would not enforce the requirment for travelling to and from meetings, however we would enforce it for demo drives.

Again some insurers will allow charity work under SDP, and some will provide specific cover for this type of work.

[hardboiled]

My previous insurer was unhappy when I asked to add a Senior Police driving instructor/examiner for the day to my insurance because I had mentioned that I would be training. I find it a crazy situation where you can't get cover for driver self-improvement!

[Horse]

I have seen a few folks speculating about the insurance situation w.r.t. advanced driving insurance and training, so it may be helpful to explain my own employer's policy in this regard. (My apologies for those of you who already know all this).

Just to clarify, is this
" . . . my own employer's policy"
or
" . . . my own employer's insurer's policy"

ie Is it from the Ins Co.?

[ScoobyChris]

I thought the whole point of observing/being observed was that it was not tuition because there are no ADI's involved and therefore it is not a business?

So, how is the situation any different from me driving Mum to the shops and her screaming at me for driving too close to the car in front, cornering on two wheels, etc, and offering suggestions of how I should be driving which I'm hoping should be covered by SDP?

Chris

[Big Err]

I think the issue is that it is organised - we wouldn't generally treat a trip to the shops as an 'Observed Drive'. But as an Observer we do tell the Associate that we will not be Instructing them, but giving advice and explaining how we would approach/deal with a situation in a manner that meets the standard required for the advanced test.

The worry is that certain Insurance Complanies would be looking for a way out of providing cover should something go wrong.

I thought the whole point of observing/being observed was that it was not tuition because there are no ADI's involved and therefore it is not a business?

So, how is the situation any different from me driving Mum to the shops and her screaming at me for driving too close to the car in front, cornering on two wheels, etc, and offering suggestions of how I should be driving which I'm hoping should be covered by SDP?

Chris

[ScoobyChris]

So if I give a demo drive "for fun", outside of RoSPA/IAM then it's fine and I'm covered by my SDP? I'm having trouble understanding how an insurer will know that you're on an observed drive - last time I saw a claim form the insurer just wanted a description of the incident, not who was in the car, where I was going or why I was driving?

Maybe I'm overlooking a scenario?

Chris

[Big Err]

Muddy waters Chris.

If you put on your claim form you were doing a demo, or an Associate mentioned an Observed drive I'm sure an Insurance Co would start rubbing their hands together - or maybe I'm a wee bit cynical....

Eric

So if I give a demo drive "for fun", outside of RoSPA/IAM then it's fine and I'm covered by my SDP? I'm having trouble understanding how an insurer will know that you're on an observed drive - last time I saw a claim form the insurer just wanted a description of the incident, not who was in the car, where I was going or why I was driving?

Maybe I'm overlooking a scenario?

Chris

[jont]

So at what level of organisation does this become a problem? Is an ADUK day organised enough to muddy the waters? What about if I'm at an MR2 owners club meeting (so a planned meet), go for a drive with someone and offer some advice?

[michael769]

I have seen a few folks speculating about the insurance situation w.r.t. advanced driving insurance and training, so it may be helpful to explain my own employer's policy in this regard. (My apologies for those of you who already know all this).

Just to clarify, is this
" . . . my own employer's policy"
or
" . . . my own employer's insurer's policy"

ie Is it from the Ins Co.?

It is a policy of a large well know insurance company whom I am not permitted to reval the name of in a public forum.

[jont]

Michael, does the first section of your original post also mean that if we are paying for instruction from an advanced instructor eg Cadence, Bespoke, Ride Drive etc that we also need to inform our insurers?

[michael769]

So if I give a demo drive "for fun", outside of RoSPA/IAM then it's fine and I'm covered by my SDP?

As long as you are not acting as a representative of the charitable organisation then yes it is.

Basically if the passenger knows you are an observer then you are acting as their representative. If however the only know you as an Advanced Driver you would be OK.

I'm having trouble understanding how an insurer will know that you're on an observed drive - last time I saw a claim form the insurer just wanted a description of the incident, not who was in the car, where I was going or why I was driving?

All insurance claim forms ask you what you were using the car for at the time of the incident.

They will only know if you tell them, of course; however if you lie you are committing insurance fraud.

If you get caught, and it only takes a slip of the tounge from yourself or a witness, then not only will you find yourself with a disallowed claim, no insurance, but you will face prosecution (insurers operate a zero tolerance policy, and press the police and prosecutors to bring all cases to court), imprisonment (courts really really take fraud very seriously)

Also you and anyone living with you (insurers are incredibly vindictive) will never be able to afford to insure your cars and homes for the next 5 years or so.

[michael769]

Michael, does the first section of your original post also mean that if we are paying for instruction from an advanced instructor eg Cadence, Bespoke, Ride Drive etc that we also need to inform our insurers?

It depends on the insurer and their attitude to recieving driving instruction.

Most companies develop policies which assume that any type of instruction is only given to learners and it simply does not occur to them that licensed drivers would want further instruction. As a result they have never bothered to produce a formal policy exempting suich instruction/ When it comes up the will waive any increased premium. Some companies like mine will ignore a failure to tell us about something that would not have resulted in an additional premium. However many will use it as a excuse to avoid paying out....

My advise is to tell them first, better that than to find yourself having to pay for a claim out of your own pocket.

[michael769]

So at what level of organisation does this become a problem? Is an ADUK day organised enough to muddy the waters? What about if I'm at an MR2 owners club meeting (so a planned meet), go for a drive with someone and offer some advice?

It depends if it could be argued to be for charitable purposes.

Generally a social gathering or meeting would be SDP. It becomes "for charitable purposes" if the driving could be argued to be a part of the charities normal operations.

Observing comes under this beceause the primary raison d'etre for an IAM or ROSPA group is to help prepare people for the advanced test.

For ADUK and owners clubs as the primary purpose is to help members meet up, providing advanced driving advice would be ok as long as you do not claim to be representing your local IAM/RoSPA group when you do so.

[JamesAllport]

Michael,

Thank you very much for posting this. It's an important debate, although I do find it verydepressing reading.

As a former lawyer, I'm normally pretty tolerant of fine print, and I see the necessity for insurance companies to restrict the cover they offer. But some of the definitions you've helpfully given us do seem pretty "Alice in Wonderland"* even to my jaded palate.

James

*"When I use a word it means exactly what I intend it to mean..."

[martine]

Thanks for posting your understanding of the situation - as James said it is very depressing and I will be raising this with IAM HQ as I know they've already issued various memos on the subject trying to clarify it (from their point of view).

If it means all my group's observers (c.45) contacting their respective insurance company to clarify, it's going to be very interesting to see the mixed responses we get. I bet most won't have any clue as to what we're asking and will attempt to 'invent' an answer to fit their own understanding. I suppose that then means we all have to get written confirmation - as a verbal answer from a call centre operator isn't going to hold much water if there's a problem.

Michael: would it be appropriate to identify the insurance company you work for? Or a contact number to get a definitive answer for your company?