Indicating when overtaking

[Handy]

When overtaking on a single carriageway, should you indicate at the start of the manouevre then cancel the indication when moved across the lane, or should the indicator remain on until the end of the manouevre?

Similarly, what is the recommended process when overtaking on a dial carriageway / motorway?

Hope you can advise.

Andy

[T.C]

This may put the cat amongst the pigeons, but, for the majority of situations, why indicate at all?

OK, let me clarify. An indicator is a meaning of intent which I think we all accept. It signifies our intention to move to the left, move to the left and stop, turn left, or our intention to move to the rifgr or turn right, not as most people think a signal of achievement.

Then ask yourself the question, what doi hope to achieve by giving a signal. So ask yourself three questions, cani give the correct signal of intent? can i give the signal at the correct time? Is there anyone who will benefit from the signal I am considering? If the answer is no what would giving a signal achieve other than prove that the bulb works.

Lets now put this into context of an overtake. You have moved from the following up into the overtaking position. You have a vehicle following behind you, and you are adjusting your position to get a confirmation view before you commit to the overtake. As soon as your indicator goes on and you commit, the driver gehind will shut the door and take your escape route. Fine if you know that you can complete the overtake safely, but, what if you have misjudged it? Your escape route is now gone, simply because the driver behind assumed that it would be OK to move up.

However, by not indicating, the folowing driver will probably hold his distance due to a little uncertainty, leaving just that small margin for you to be able to safely abort. The car you are about to overtake does not need to see your signal, approaching drivers do not need a signal as they can already see you in the opposing carriageway, and it avoids confusion in someone thinking that you are about to carry out a right hand turn. As far as indicating to return to the nearside, why? We drive on the left and it is obvious that we will have to return to the nearside lane.

If a driver is insistent on signalling for an overtake, then bearing in mind that we want to go past the vehicle we are overtaking in a straight line, then once you have moved out to the opposing carriageway and confirmed that you are commiting to the overtake, then you could use your signal as confirmation of your intent to stay out on the offside.

On a Motorway, slightly different as you want to signal your intent to move from the left hand lane to a lane on your right, so giving a god signal means that other traffic may hold back whilst you move out, or themselves move out to a right hand lane. Again for returning back to lane 2 or 1 why indicate for the reasons I mentioned above, unless! You consider it beneficial to let other motorists know that you intend to return to the nearside lane at the first safe opportunity.

The whole key to signalling is "Consider"! If there is no benefit, it is misleading or ceases to be a signal of intent, then what is the point. As an examiner i often mark people down for giving superflous signals and overtaking is one of them unless it is in context with the system.

So in short, and this really applies to all signalling, ask yourself 3 little questions.

Can I give a good signal in good time?

Can I give a signal with the correct meaning of intent?

Is there anyone around who will benefit from the signal I am about to consider?

If the answer is NO, then what does giving a signal achieve? However if anyone of the answers is Yes! Then you can decide on the appropriate point in which to introduce the signal as part of the information phase, bearing in mind that you may initialy decide that there is no benefit, but as the situation develops you decide that now may be a good time to give a signal as you have used the information and developed it into your driving plan.

As I say, it may be a little contreversial and I may not have explained it very well for which I apologise, but poor signalling is one of my pet hates, and as an investigator I probaly deal with more crashes caused by the poor use of signals (other than speed related) than any other cause.

[crr003]

As I say, it may be a little contreversial and I may not have explained it very well for which I apologise, but poor signalling is one of my pet hates, and as an investigator I probaly deal with more crashes caused by the poor use of signals (other than speed related) than any other cause.

Sounds good to me. It just involves too much thought for your average driver. I think the problem is ingrained at DSA level with MSM routines.

The problem is when it's really misleading.

About the only thing that worries me driving is when overtaking something in lane 1 say and it starts to indicate as I get parallel with it - is it going to pull out or not? (it really knows I'm there and is simply indicating too early - it will wait till I've gone past - the information that it wants to overtake is useless to me).

[vonhosen]

As already said you should only do it if to be of benefit & not misleading, not just for the sake of it.

Some of the rare occasions I may, are if I am patiently waiting for a safe opportunity to overtake one infront myself & I have something particularly pushy behind me, although there isn't anywhere to go or I would have already gone myself.
If I am driving a PSV or artic, because vehicles behind invariably will be looking to get past me & they may not be able to see the slow mover infront that I am approaching & intending to pass.
or
If moving from lane 1 on motorway to a totally clear lane 2, but with fast traffic in 3.(The lead one of which you would hope would be also looking to come to lane 2 with their lane discipline)

[prashantrchauhan]

On a single carriage way, the situations you overtake is overtaking a stationary vehicle (eg. a parked car), a slow moving maintenence vehicle, cyclist, horse rider, or a bus waiting at a bus stop. Basically what you should do on single carriageways is first check your interior mirror, signal right, check your right exterior mirror and take a quick sideways glance, which is checking your blind spot (an area you can't see in your mirrors), because there might be a cyclist or motorbike next to you, which you cannt see in your mirrors. When you have made the checks mentioned, move your car out and leave about 1 car door size gap when you pass the obstruction, and don't cut in too quickly, make a gradual course. After you move out, the signal will cancel, if it doesnt cancel it yourself. After you pass your obstruction, you will have to bring your car back into its normal position on the road. There is no need to signal for this, because the drivers behind you know that you have no where else to go to, toerh than return to your normal driving position i.e. 2-3 feet from the kerb. Just check you interior mirror, followed by you left exterior mirror and a quick glance to the left blind spot and when it is safe, bring you car back to the normal driing position, which is 2-3 feet from the kerb.

On dual carriage ways and motorways it is similar to the above procedures. You have to signal at all times when changing lanes, even when returning to your usual lane, eg, you are in the left lane and you decide to overtake a truck.

Hope this info is helpful to you.

Feel free to ask me any questions if you wish.

Regards.

[vonhosen]

On dual carriage ways and motorways it is similar to the above procedures. You have to signal at all times when changing lanes, even when returning to your usual lane, eg, you are in the left lane and you decide to overtake a truck.

Hope this info is helpful to you.

Feel free to ask me any questions if you wish.

Regards.

Why do you have to signal though ?

Surely the signal is not for your benefit, but simply to let others know of your intention if they will benefit from it.

If there is no-one there why signal ?

If you are in lane 1 & you wish to move to lane 2, whilst you are travelling faster than the traffic in lane 2 (which is some distance back) your movement is not going to affect them at all, so why signal ?

If you give signals out of habit, simply in the belief that you always should give signals, you have not considered whether it could have a detrimental effect & could be misleading. Whenever you are going to give information to others it should have followed a process of consideration , not just be given whatever the circumstances IMHO.
If that it is true, then it follows that if you have followed a process of consideration as to whether one is needed or not (prior to giving it) then you wouldn't give one where you can see no benefit. After all you wouldn't say "Do I need to give a signal here ?" , "No I don't" , "Oh I will anyway".
Or would you ?

[T.C]

prashantrchauhan, sorry, but what you are describing is the Highway Code and DSA thinking on signals, not what may be considered as advanced.

You say we have to signal at all times. Why? You are coming home early hours of the morning, quiet housing estate, you have gone through the information phase, considered the need for a signal, but there is no one at this time to benefit. Who are you signalling to? The local Tom Cat?

As Vonhosen rightly said, the signal is for the benefit of other road which could be pedestrians, cyclists or whatever as well as car drivers, not for your benefit, and to give a signal through habit shows that no driving plan is being applied and the driver is not systemised.

Likewise, when passing stationary vehicles, if you have taken good early observation, prioritised the hazard and taken up your position early, what are you achieving in giving a signal?

As I have said before, it all about considering where and when it is appropriate. It is not cast in stone as the DSA would have us believe, it is about using the grey matter and using it when appropriate. What you have suggested is simply to give a signal through habit.

Not having a pop, so please don't take offence, but your response is what I would expect from a learner instructor not an advanced driver.

[vonhosen]

Likewise, when passing stationary vehicles, if you have taken good early observation, prioritised the hazard and taken up your position early, what are you achieving in giving a signal?

Exactly

There is a junction 200 yards ahead on my right & car parked up 400 yards ahead on my left. I've checked my mirrors, I have a vehicle behind. I wish to position nice & early to pass the stationary car, but if I signal now (before I move out to that position) will the car behind not take that to mean that I wish to take the junction on the right, even though that is not my intention, and shape up to pass me on my nearside ?

[jibberjabber25]

prashantrchauhan, sorry, but what you are describing is the Highway Code and DSA thinking on signals, not what may be considered as advanced...

...Not having a pop, so please don't take offence, but your response is what I would expect from a learner instructor not an advanced driver.

prashantrchauhan has just passed his/her L test...I would just say give him/her a break!

[T.C]

prashantrchauhan has just passed his/her L test...I would just say give him/her a break!

Hence my last paragraph. I assumed it had to be from someone who hasn't progressed up the ladder yet, but the comment was made as a statement of fact, which, (and I appreciate I am a new boy here) I would have thought would have appeared out of place on a board such as this.

Good on them though for taking an interest

[vonhosen]

prashantrchauhan

Yes
Please don't take it as an attack on you. I'd hate for you to not bother posting in future because you are worried that your post will be criticised. That is not my intention. I merely seek to offer alternatives (with explainations why) so that you or others may consider if there is a better way.

Feel free to question any post I make (I like a healthy debate )

[Lynne]

prashantrchauhan has just passed his/her L test...I would just say give him/her a break!

Hence my last paragraph. I assumed it had to be from someone who hasn't progressed up the ladder yet, but the comment was made as a statement of fact, which, (and I appreciate I am a new boy here) I would have thought would have appeared out of place on a board such as this.

Good on them though for taking an interest

Prashantrchauhan, as an ADI I can understand what your instructor has taught you, and ADIs are taught to teach the syllabus as required by the DSA.

So you understand, a lot of what's talked about on this site comes from the Roadcraft manual whereby 'advanced' driving is, in some respects, slightly different. It's a really interesting book to read (and you can pick it up and put it down, it's not 'heavy') and will explain some of the techniques regarding positioning and signalling which are talked about on here. When you've been driving for a bit you may like to do the IAM or RoSPA courses to help enhance your skills. They're not expensive to do and if you like driving, you'll really enjoy what these courses have to offer.

There are people on here who have just passed their test who (like Jibberjabber did before the forum went belly up) get posting and you are more than welcome to join in and ask any questions you like and if you don't understand the 'whys and wherefores' someone here will be happy to explain it.

A lot of these guys are trained up to the hilt and can offer fantastic advice so don't let them put you off by not giving you a break!

Lynne

[crr003]

So, to go slightly off topic, if someone was trying to go for Cardington or DIAmond advanced, would they be expected to signal as prashantrchauhan wrote (which sounds to be classic DSA L speak to me)?

Even HC rule 85 says:

"use them, if necessary, before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off" (my italics).

Surely "if necessary" implies a degree of thought on the part of the driver and is not a million miles away from Roadcraft/IAM/RoADA expecting drivers to plan their drive?

I think the HC is pretty good, if applied correctly, and DSA teaching dumbs it down in the interests of getting people to pass tests.

[crr003]

On a single carriage way, the situations you overtake is overtaking a stationary vehicle (eg. a parked car), a slow moving maintenence vehicle, cyclist, horse rider, or a bus waiting at a bus stop.

Feel free to ask me any questions if you wish.

Regards.

Hi there. Are you saying you wouldn't consider overtaking a car moving slower than the speed you felt it safe to be progressing at?

Say on an NSL SC road, you come across someone doing 40? What would you think about doing?