Advanced Driving in Other Countries

[CDAWG]

While advanced driving appears to be something that only a very small proportion of drivers(I am guessing less than half of a percent) are involved in. From what research I have done it appears that few other countries have Advanced Driving organizations, and courses available. In my country there are very few. A few racing schools offer street classes, there's Drivetrainusa in San Francisco, and Eddie Wren, a former Cumbrian Traffic Police is trying to set up a Roada like organization in the states. It appears that a few other countries have IAM groups I believe Ireland, Australia, and Bermuda. These countries have these courses I assume, because they used to be colonies, or because these countries speak English. And Roadcraft is written in English.

Do any non English speaking countries have anything remotely similar to advanced driving? Do they have these types of classes or organizations on the continent?

If anyone has any idea at all feel free to post as I would like to get is much knowledge as I possibly can.

Chris

[Jungles]

It appears that a few other countries have IAM groups I believe ..... Australia ..... These countries have these courses I assume, because they used to be colonies, or because these countries speak English. And Roadcraft is written in English.

Roadcraft has very little bearing on advanced driving in Australia. If it rates any mention, it is seen mostly as a British thing, and a book with good theoretical guidelines, but not much more than that. Unlike the UK, Roadcraft is not considered to be the authoritative manual of advanced driving.

We also do not have any formal advanced driving organisations. There is a very small IAM-like organisation, but it is practically unknown in the mainstream: http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/aiam/index.htm

The #1 guiding authority in driver tuition is the Australian Driver Trainer's Association: http://www.adta.com.au/ (link to NSW chapter's website). State and Territory transport authorities highly recommend that learners seek drivier tuition from ADTA member instructors.

Other than the ADTA, there are several well-known schools of advanced driver tuition who are considered leading experts in advanced driving in Australia and the South-East Asian region:

• Peter Finlay
• Jim Murcott
• Peter Wherrett
• Safe Drive Training
• Holden Performance Driving Centre

...come immediately to mind.

We also have some excellent academic research centres that specialise in road safety and motoring:

• Monash University Accident Research Centre (MUARC) is the largest and considered to be the leading authority
• University of Adelaide's Centre for Automotive Safety Research
• Queensland University of Technology's Centre for Accident Research and Road Safety

Australia's two of the largest motor insurance companies, NRMA and AAMI, are also very active in advanced driver training and safety research. State and Territory automotive clubs are also very active supporters of advanced driving, with some running courses of their own, such as the Royal Automotive Club of Queensland (RACQ)'s Driver Education Unit.

Unlike the UK, the police are rarely considered to be experts in advanced driving. While police instructors undoubtedly command some measure of respect, they tend to have fairly narrow basis of experience (usually emergency driving and pursuit). Civilian (that is to say, non-police) instructors are generally better regarded due to their wide range of experience. Most of the well-known ones have interests in driving from various angles, such as motorsport, engineering, education, and consultative experience in specialist fields (including government services).

Overall, we do not have centralised authorities. Advanced driving is a very dynamic and independent affair in Australia, which is all the better, since it helps to make advanced driving evolve quickly to change and there are very fluid absorption of newer ideas, not to mention plenty of non-authoritarian debate. It helps to avoid the perception of stagnation that plagues more rooted authorities, like the UK's IAM, police, and ultimately Roadcraft.

Despite the decentralised and independent approach to advanced driving, the promotion of advanced driving is very strong in Australia, and is becoming more and more popular by the day. Most of the recognised expert opinions are quite uniform and pragmatic, rather than dogmatic, as per Roadcraft.

The sad thing is that the only impediment to advanced driving appear to be the State and Territory governments themselves, who for some strange reason, always cite the lack of funding for pulling community-based post-license training programs, despite overwhelming support by the communities that benefit from them.

[Gareth]

Do you know of any books or web pages that describe the current state of the art of advanced driving in Australia?

Some advanced driving ideas in countries like Australia preach from the same hymn sheet as Roadcraft, but that is as often due to coindence as genuine influence.

Might this, rather than coincidence, instead be due to those ideas making most sense?

Edited to ask: what happened to the P.S. that was included at the bottom of Jungles' post? It was there when I replied, but now I don't see it.

[Gareth]

I had a look at a couple of the links you provided.

There is a very small IAM-like organisation, but it is practically unknown in the mainstream: http://www.tased.edu.au/tasonline/aiam/index.htm

I was interested to find the following on their web site (with my emphasis):

AIMS AND OBJECTS OF THE AUSTRALIAN INSTITUTE OF ADVANCED MOTORISTS (Tasmania) Inc.
1. To improve driving standards throughout the Tasmanian community by -
2. Promoting the merits of defensive driving and advanced driving principles as established by the Institute of Advanced Motorists (I.A.M.) in Great Britain.
3. Conducting courses of tuition and giving practical instruction in vehicle-handling, application of road-craft and advanced driving techniques.
4. Providing a fellowship of all persons interested in the courteous considerate and careful use of the motor vehicle on public roads.
5. Conducting tests, inspections, examinations, classes, seminars, contests, meetings and all such lawful activities as are incidental to the pursuance of the foregoing objects.

The #1 guiding authority in driver tuition is the Australian Driver Trainer's Association: http://www.adta.com.au/ (link to NSW chapter's website). State and Territory transport authorities highly recommend that learners seek drivier tuition from ADTA member instructors.

Looking through the web sites of the various state ADTA's I was unable to find anything that could be described as advanced driving. Instead they seem concentrate on teaching first-time drivers, and so fill a similar role to Approved Driving Instructors (ADI) in the UK, the main difference being that in the UK, permission to charge for instruction must be obtained from the government by way of completing the examinations to become and then continue to be an ADI.

[Jungles]

You are correct in saying that the ADTA is an organisation for instructors of beginner drivers. As I said in my previous post, the ADTA is considered to be the #1 authority in driving tuition.

However, the culture of driver tuition in Australia ties "advanced driving" very closely with teaching beginner drivers. Driving instructors are encouraged to teach advanced driving principles to their learner drivers, as an integrated learning experience, rather than something that has to be learned after obtaining their licence.

Unfortunately, you won't read about "state of the art" advanced driving from any respectable Australian source. Although I have tried to search for exactly what you ask, I haven't had any success. Actually doing some higher-level courses are the only way you'll be able to get a taste for advanced driving in Australia.

Might this, rather than coincidence, instead be due to those ideas making most sense?

You misunderstand me.

I meant "coincidence" in that you have two pools of thought arriving at the same conclusion with minimal interference between each other. It's like two scientists who barely talk to each other arriving at the same theory. It's a coincidence that gives credibility to the matching theory or idea.

In the case of Roadcraft, those matching or similar ideas, such as the system of vehicle control, give credibility to Roadcraft.

Remember that the foundational aspects of Roadcraft, including driving to a system, was developed by Lord Cottonham, an experience racing driver, who used his ideas of the best practice in racing into normal driving. As one of Australia's biggest motoring influences was motorsport itself, ideas and theories about driving are bound to converge.

[vonhosen]

I think a lot of the problem stems from the term "Advanced driving", we all have a different idea of what that means.

We are not talking about something that is a common identifiable standard, merely words that express something beyond basic driving standards deemed acceptable to drive on the roads (& even that will vary from country to country).

As such when we use the term "Advanced driving" we are mainly referring to our own idea of the criteria it is based upon & a standard that we associate with it.
Each of us will have very different ideas of what we consider an advanced driver to be in both the competencies they will display & the skill level they which they have to attain within those competencies.

Only people from like organisations & who have been tested within those organisations to the standard needed to qualify there, are likely to know what constitutes an advanced driver to that group.

[CDAWG]

I think a lot of the problem stems from the term "Advanced driving", we all have a different idea of what that means.

We are not talking about something that is a common identifiable standard, merely words that express something beyond basic driving standards deemed acceptable to drive on the roads (& even that will vary from country to country).

As such when we use the term "Advanced driving" we are mainly referring to our own idea of the criteria it is based upon & a standard that we associate with it.
Each of us will have very different ideas of what we consider an advanced driver to be in both the competencies they will display & the skill level they which they have to attain within those competencies.

Only people from like organisations & who have been tested within those organisations to the standard needed to qualify there, are likely to know what constitutes an advanced driver to that group.

I agree with you tgat there must be a set standard for it to be "advanced driving".

What I am wondering about is "advanced driving" for the most part something unique to the UK?

Chris

[vonhosen]

Unlike the UK, the police are rarely considered to be experts in advanced driving. While police instructors undoubtedly command some measure of respect, they tend to have fairly narrow basis of experience (usually emergency driving and pursuit). Civilian (that is to say, non-police) instructors are generally better regarded due to their wide range of experience. Most of the well-known ones have interests in driving from various angles, such as motorsport, engineering, education, and consultative experience in specialist fields (including government services).

That's interesting. Is it your experience that Police instructors don't have diversity in their experiences or is it your perception of that ?

Certainly here Police instructors tend to have a wide encompassing variety of experiences. Some active in competitive motorsport, some with academic educational interests, some with a wide variety of experience in driving related matters prior to becoming Police instructors, or jobs within teh motoring/training industries. All this they can add to their emergency response & pursuit experience. Of course the emergency services instructors are also in a unique position in how they can legally drive for extended periods at higher speeds on our roads. Something it is not easy for others to do or gain the experience in, because driving at speed on public roads can't be replicated on the track.

Most of the recognised expert opinions are quite uniform and pragmatic, rather than dogmatic, as per Roadcraft.

Dogma is something that is levelled at Roadcraft quite often, sometimes fairly sometimes not.

It has to be remembered who roadcraft is actually written for. It is the Police driver's handbook. The Police service will be very prescriptive in the way it demands it's drivers drive. The Police service after all, are going to be looking after their own interests & saying to their drivers, if you adhere to these teachings you will not be having collisions where we hold you liable, if you then don't adhere to it & have one, you will be held liable. They don't want their drivers having collisions because of the damage that does to Police officers, the public & the relationship between the two. Police drivers themselves are not all going to be talented natural drivers to start with, but roadcraft is about making competent safe drivers of them all irrespective of their natural ability with the use of a one tool that can be used by all approach.

The more talented may well find that restrictive, but as I say the Police service is not so much interested in the dizzy heights that individuals could reach as opposed to giving everyone the equipment they need to perform a role safely & reliably.

The fact that a lot of other public & private bodies have adopted it's teachings, basing their own courses around it's principles, are testament to it's worth. But there is no reason for other bodies to be as prescriptive with it if they don't wish to. It's a matter for them.

I would say though that the actual 4S's & system itself is not too restrictive, it is infact very flexible.

[crr003]

I think a lot of the problem stems from the term "Advanced driving", we all have a different idea of what that means.

In 2000 DSA of Great Britain agreed (with IAM, RoSPA, and DAM) the following definition of advanced driving:

"Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. The skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should always be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."

I always thought that was a good attempt at a definition.

[BillZZR600]

CDAWG,
I had come accross this link for an American Organisation, which puports to teach and promote "Advanced Driving" and "Roadcraft" principles and its testing standards based upon the RoADAR model.
I took a lot of the founders "resumes" as being a bit of self promotion, but they seem genuine.



http://www.driveandstayalive.com/z-ada/ada-home.htm



Bill

[waremark]

This link is to the website of Eddy Wren, the former UK traffic officer referred to in the first posting in this thread.

[CDAWG]

Yes, I am familar with Eddie Wren. I think he has quite an ambitious effort to come over here and try to promote "advanced driving". If one of his courses ever makes it to my area I would be sure to take it, but so far I have not seen much going on his website. Nor do I have any idea when his courses will be starting at all.

Chris.

[Blotto]

On four wheels, Bondurant's renowned school offers several advanced driving courses. (The Bondurant school teaches Phoenix police and American Special Forces, amongst others.)
www.bondurant.com/courses/courses.php

Bondurant's written some books on police and advanced driving:
www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/07603 ... 02-1907624

On two wheels, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, provides basic and advanced training in the USA:
www.msf-usa.org/

The MSF also has some books on advanced riding:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884313019/10 ... e&n=283155
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0760317607/re ... e&n=283155

[waremark]

On four wheels, Bondurant's renowned school offers several advanced driving courses. (The Bondurant school teaches Phoenix police and American Special Forces, amongst others.)
www.bondurant.com/courses/courses.php

The very smart web site offers a range of courses claiming to cover road driving skills as well as racing. But even in the road driving section I could not find a single reference to hazards, hazard perception or traffic. The training is apparently all about vehicle handling, and takes place on an off-road facility. In the details given of the instructors, the information provided is of their racing experience.

The Bondurant school is not about advanced driving as we know it.

[CDAWG]

I believe advanced training for motorcycles is available in most places as bikers realize that they are much more prone to danger than drivers of cars. The bike offers no crash protection, and is smaller and harder to see.

I believe that advanced training for drivers of cars is relatively hard to come across. I do have to commend your country for putting together so much infomation on car driving.

Chris