Driving Styles

[WhoseGeneration]

Perhaps we might wonder why there is so little overlap in the UK between the worlds of motorsport and advanced road driving. Many of the best road drivers of my acquaintance feel that track experience has helped them to improve their road driving; and a couple of the best road advanced driving instructors of the last generation were competent track racers (I am thinking of Mike Franey and John Lyon). In general, however, track racers don't seem to find road driving interesting enough to work in this field.

I would be fascinated to know how we would assess the road driving skills and instruction of the Israeli's whom Astraist quotes. I suspect that there would be a lot of scope for cross fertilisation.

Astra, we are waiting for you to come and drive with us in England - somehow that seems more likely than that a crowd of us will come and drive with you in Israel.

I can see that, for those who wish to have a bit more capability in their road driving, some track experience could be useful in terms of understanding ultimate limits of their vehicle and theirselves.
I still maintain that this is not necessary to produce good road drivers, who understand the responsibility of that because those limits should never be approached on public roads.
That would include being able to drive beyond our pathetic NSLs.
That basic road rule, stop, distance clear, own side, of no concern in competition, that's the difference.
Then there's, certainly in rallying, no need to consider the actions of others, racing is different of course but not to the same extent as on the public road.
Or. perhaps I've got it all wrong.

[TripleS]

Perhaps we might wonder why there is so little overlap in the UK between the worlds of motorsport and advanced road driving. Many of the best road drivers of my acquaintance feel that track experience has helped them to improve their road driving; and a couple of the best road advanced driving instructors of the last generation were competent track racers (I am thinking of Mike Franey and John Lyon). In general, however, track racers don't seem to find road driving interesting enough to work in this field.

I would be fascinated to know how we would assess the road driving skills and instruction of the Israeli's whom Astraist quotes. I suspect that there would be a lot of scope for cross fertilisation.

Astra, we are waiting for you to come and drive with us in England - somehow that seems more likely than that a crowd of us will come and drive with you in Israel.

I can see that, for those who wish to have a bit more capability in their road driving, some track experience could be useful in terms of understanding ultimate limits of their vehicle and theirselves.
I still maintain that this is not necessary to produce good road drivers, who understand the responsibility of that because those limits should never be approached on public roads.
That would include being able to drive beyond our pathetic NSLs.
That basic road rule, stop, distance clear, own side, of no concern in competition, that's the difference.
Then there's, certainly in rallying, no need to consider the actions of others, racing is different of course but not to the same extent as on the public road.
Or. perhaps I've got it all wrong.

Not at all, I think you've got it right.

The techniques involved in race or rally driving are quite interesting, and it may be helpful to have some understanding of them; but I feel they have little practical relevance to road driving.

in my view seeking to apply track related skills on public roads is likely to encourage excessively flamboyant driving styles and lead to a reduction in safety. I'm not a safety fanatic by any means, but I think we ought to keep the skill sets separate.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

I can see that, for those who wish to have a bit more capability in their road driving, some track experience could be useful in terms of understanding ultimate limits of their vehicle and theirselves.

Yes, knowing how far you are from any limit must increase safety. How about also increasing those ultimate limits and therefore being further away from them at a given speed?

[gallevin]

I found your discussion fascinating. As for the claim that some track experience could be useful in terms of understanding ultimate limits of their vehicle and theirselves- I totally support that. And Mike Franey is indeed a good example for that.

[WhoseGeneration]

I can see that, for those who wish to have a bit more capability in their road driving, some track experience could be useful in terms of understanding ultimate limits of their vehicle and theirselves.

Yes, knowing how far you are from any limit must increase safety. How about also increasing those ultimate limits and therefore being further away from them at a given speed?

Well, I'm trying to remember the chapter in Roadcraft that suggests I should explore ultimate limits.

[Astraist]

Roadcraft, much like any advanced driving program, dictates that a driver will drive at the speed that suits the conditions. That is exactly what the racing driver does! The conditions in the track allow to push the absolute limit. On the road - they do not. Therefore, any track driver that will drive the road in the "mindset" of the track will drive well within the limits.

In fact, the track driver is likely to maintain a bigger safety margin than one who has no experience on the track! Reaching the limit is something that anyone could do: Taking tight lines, coarse steering, strong braking around the corners -- all can make a driver on the track to be much slower, although technically he will be driving the car to the limit. The professional track driver can take the right line, brake at the right time and guide the car positivelly into the corner as to be faster than the former driver, without actually being on the limit.

In the same fashion, the track driver can achieve the largest possible margin of safety when driving on the road. In tuitions did on public roads, when we reach mountain roads, many drivers often get their cars quite close to the limit with their natural driving, but after adopting the track driving style, the amount of superfeit grip they acquire is increased by dozens of precents!

[WhoseGeneration]

Roadcraft, much like any advanced driving program, dictates that a driver will drive at the speed that suits the conditions. That is exactly what the racing driver does! The conditions in the track allow to push the absolute limit. On the road - they do not. Therefore, any track driver that will drive the road in the "mindset" of the track will drive well within the limits.

In fact, the track driver is likely to maintain a bigger safety margin than one who has no experience on the track! Reaching the limit is something that anyone could do: Taking tight lines, coarse steering, strong braking around the corners -- all can make a driver on the track to be much slower, although technically he will be driving the car to the limit. The professional track driver can take the right line, brake at the right time and guide the car positivelly into the corner as to be faster than the former driver, without actually being on the limit.

In the same fashion, the track driver can achieve the largest possible margin of safety when driving on the road. In tuitions did on public roads, when we reach mountain roads, many drivers often get their cars quite close to the limit with their natural driving, but after adopting the track driving style, the amount of superfeit grip they acquire is increased by dozens of precents!

We'll never agree.
I've tried to explain why, as have others but you always maintain your view.
Perhaps because your explanations never seem to take account of others who may be on the road, you always talking with reference to the one you consider in terms of their driving.

[Gareth]

Roadcraft, much like any advanced driving program, dictates that a driver will drive at the speed that suits the conditions. That is exactly what the racing driver does! The conditions in the track allow to push the absolute limit. On the road - they do not. Therefore, any track driver that will drive the road in the "mindset" of the track will drive well within the limits.

I find it difficult to agree with this point. From a strictly theoretical point of view your claim has attractions but there are significant differences in the skills built up by the experienced track driver compared to those of the experienced road driver, with the latter developing a better appreciation for potential hazards encountered in road driving. There's also a difference in the style and aims of observation in the two disciplines that aren't directly transferable from one to another.

The focus of what's being attempted is different, as is the attitude towards other road/track users.

[jcochrane]

Roadcraft, much like any advanced driving program, dictates that a driver will drive at the speed that suits the conditions. That is exactly what the racing driver does! The conditions in the track allow to push the absolute limit. On the road - they do not. Therefore, any track driver that will drive the road in the "mindset" of the track will drive well within the limits.

I find it difficult to agree with this point. From a strictly theoretical point of view your claim has attractions but there are significant differences in the skills built up by the experienced track driver compared to those of the experienced road driver, with the latter developing a better appreciation for potential hazards encountered in road driving. There's also a difference in the style and aims of observation in the two disciplines that aren't directly transferable from one to another.

The focus of what's being attempted is different, as is the attitude towards other road/track users.

I would agree with what you said Gareth.
Unlike Astraist I have, in general, found that most drivers from the track are more confident to drive on the road closer to the limits as they have the experience to do so. Gareth and I know one driver who feels most comfortable when he can feel the back end of a 911 moving slightly.

[Astraist]

Track driving is the peak of driving out of anticipation. Only in this kind of driving can one be planning as far ahead as practically possible, while moving at a three-digit speed (given the suitable conditions of the track) and know exactly which inputs he want to apply onto his car, how much of them and exactly where to place his car (within a few inches' range) at any step of the road ahead.

However, never have I said that track driving (or rallly driving) circulates all of the aspects of road driving: Important subjects of road and traffic management are left out, but that does not mean that they are not taught! I have posted the cotents of my tuitions in the past, and the tuitions done in other institutions that are based on track or rally driving are quite similar to mine.

[jcochrane]

Track driving is the peak of driving out of anticipation.

I'm not convinced about this as track driving removes many of the hazards and "what ifs" experienced on the road.

I would acknowledge that quick reactions, fine judgement and precision would be called upon more often during racing.

[jcochrane]

For the record I do think track, proving ground, limit handling experience does help in day to day road driving. Techniques such as heel and toe, left foot braking etc. are also useful tools but they are not specific or restricted to the racing world. I discovered, as many others have, these and other techniques as a young man through trial and error no one told me about them and having no idea that they were used in racing. I see nothing wrong in broadening ones experience or experimenting, in a safe environment or manner, and if it provides an advantage (is smoother, safer more accurate etc.) for road driving why not use it?

However competitive racing track or rallying is another matter, in my view. Although some techniques are transferable to the road the mental approach and thought processes I consider are in the main different. Some of the mental thinking does translate but not all. Just taking one element alone, overtaking. In racing there is a desire to be competitive and get passed even with inches to spare and only sparse consideration being given to the effect on the driver being overtaken. To not overtake is seen as a failing. I would suggest that for the road the approach would be, it is never wrong to not overtake and if overtaking good safety margins must be maintained and the effect on the overtaken car and other road users must be fully considered. So overall I personally do not think that a racing “style” (track or rally) generally sits well or is necessarily well suited or transferable to the “style” best adopted for road driving.

A racing driver’s attitude of mind and thus the reflected style, when racing, is heavily biased to be competitive. This attitude/style is one of the very things to avoid in road driving.

[Astraist]

The competitive approach is only possible due to the conditions of the track: The lack of slow-moving traffic on the racing line, the marshals, the safety margins, sand-traps and energy absorbing rails, as well as the modifications to the vehicles and the high level of skill that is supposed to be possesed by each driver. In other words, the track driver acts competitivelly when the conditions allow. On the road - they do not.

[Astraist]

The competitive approach is only possible due to the conditions of the track: The lack of slow-moving traffic on the racing line, the marshals, the safety margins, sand-traps and energy absorbing rails, as well as the modifications to the vehicles and the high level of skill that is supposed to be possesed by each driver. In other words, the track driver acts competitivelly when the conditions allow. On the road - they do not.

[jcochrane]

The competitive approach is only possible due to the conditions of the track: The lack of slow-moving traffic on the racing line, the marshals, the safety margins, sand-traps and energy absorbing rails, as well as the modifications to the vehicles and the high level of skill that is supposed to be possesed by each driver. In other words, the track driver acts competitivelly when the conditions allow. On the road - they do not.

Precisely my point. We agree.