Driving Styles

[Astraist]

I have been in doubts as to whether post this or not and, following the latest discussion on cornering, I've found it most appropriate. This is a translation (by me) for a discussion that took place in one local online board between two of the greatest figures in advanced driving and race driving in Israel: Re'm Samuel and O'n Yakobson. The two people run competing companies that instruct advanced driving, and share a different past: One with a successful career as a road rallying driver in France, the other -- a track driver that raced in the US and Europe. They shared long periods of time as co-workers in the prestigious rally driving school of GET in Cergy, France.

The discussion begins when Re'm posts an "article" about how rally driving is a better "medium" for acquiring advanced road driving skills than track driving. O'n responds and a whole argument develops. I find it enriching and I assume it be "refreshing" to get an inside look at the world of advanced driving across the European continent.

The differences between Rally driving and Track Driving

What are the differences? Why is one better than the other? Is there really a big difference between the two? The answer is yes. Let's explain: Track Driving includes driving on all sorts of closed tracks but, when talking about track driving, we talk about a school of thought that teaches driving based on Salon and Formula race-track driving. Rally driving is perceived, by mistake, as gravel and dune racing (the "Paris-Dakar" Rally Raid and alike) or, in layman terms, as driving a turbocharged Impreza on gravel roads while sliding the car. Well, this is not true, for the track or rally stage, and I explain.

The track has pros and unfortunately a lot of cons too. Track driving is the most accurate sort of driving. The accuracy on the track is important because the drivers go around the same track over and over, they know every inch of it and have to drive as accurately as possible to shave off another tenth of a second. The accuracy can be practiced through the drivers' knowledge of the track and it's corners.

The same accurate driving style is the downside, and can be dangerous if applied on the public road. The reason is that the road includes surprises, bends which I'm not always as familiar with, water and other foliages, oncoming traffic and other troubles so I can't rely on the safety gap that actually does not exist in track driving. Rally driving, unlike track driving, is done on closed public roads, tarmac or dirt, with cars that are basically road cars that have been altered for racing. This kind of driving simulates your everyday road driving at the best way because it's done on roads just like those you and I take when we go for work or for a trip.

Rally driving divides into dirt and tarmac races. Road-rallying (tarmac), in which yours truelly has won the French championship twice, is a race on public roads which gives the best base for teaching safe road driving and performance driving. Driving based on the Rallying discipline is based on proper driving, car control and anticipation of various conditions that don't exist on the track like sharp corners (a 90-degree corner is like a hairpin on the track), uphill and downhill inclines, gorges, rocks, sidewalks (on the track there are run-off areas), etc...

This is why, for instance, the rallying technique allows to enter a corner in a way that allows for a greater ability to react to hazards (which in actual races is done by sliding the car and on the road by turning the wheel in a way that allows to make corrections in case of a surprise or mistake) relative to track driving which doesn't notice the limitations of the public roads. In dirt rallying there is also a stress on fun and sliding and controlling the car. To sum it all up, rally driving is the best driving style for simulating your everyday driving style. Track driving is good as an experience for realizing the dreams of want-to-be "Formula" Drivers.

Re'm

Track Driving and It's Different Applications
There surely are differences between track driving and rally driving. There are similar differences between driving on a closed track and driving in a "track" style on the public roads. As one who belongs to the "school of thought that teaches driving based on Salon and Formula race-track driving" I will explain further: On the circuit, which has been driven dozens, if not hundreds of times (per day!), the method verily is to utilize all the possible space and drive as accurately as possible. The driving style is more refined and smooth than in rallying, but leaves no safety gap for road driving. No one will ever drive like this on the road!

In both styles, every sane driver would leave an appropriate reserve for possible mistakes. In track-based road driving style there is also a stress on surprises like sharp corners, ellevation changes, cliffs and all other problems related to the public road. The main difference is that the track driver works with the car rather than against it, as in rally driving. Furthermore, the track driving technique is based on the concept of "slow in, fast out", meaning that the speed coming into the corner is "sacrificed" for a line that will allow to open the steering and accelerate as early as mid-corner, which means that in any unforseen event it's possible not to open the steering and/or throttle and maintain a sufficient safety gap, as in cases like a decreasing-radius corner, succesive corners or cars on the outside line.

Rally driving is based on sliding the car into the corner or turning it in a provocative manner that requires skill and a closer brush with the limit, but does not nessecaily facilitates faster driving, not to mention safe driving. The other techniques are quite similar. In both styles there is a stress on planning and observation, in both there should be a stress on leaving a suficient reserve for safety on the public road. With all do respect for Re'm (and there is lots of it!) saying that applying this kind of driving style on the street is dangerous is simply inappropriate demagogy.

And just to be clear, rally driving technique is not owned by one school while track driving is the realm of another. We also do rally courses with a distinct stress on rallying techniques. In fact, leaving the traditional rallying techniques aside, it is in fact the stress of accurate driving that made all of our rally drivers faster.

O'n.

Rem's response:
"I'm not saying that track driving is dangerous!! I'm saying that road rallying is more suitable for road driving. It's a fact that the actual races are on public roads. There is little sliding going on when rallying on tarmac so it's not true to say that it involves sliding the car, surely not on tarmac. The driving is smooth, all while sacrificing corner entry speed for a proper exit and while maintaining the right reserve of grip. The subject of sliding is just what my article was meant to show. Rally driving is the most suitable driving style for the public road. Sliding is for people who want to slide, not for learning proper driving.

I personally know a French Formula Renault champion that flew off of the road in a rally stage due to a very little surprise because he did not maintain the proper safety gap.

On's response:
Dear Re'm, I have no idea or care as to why you turned this into a personal rebuttel between us (actually I do have an idea, but never mind). In your first article you wrote and I quote: "The same accurate driving style is the downside and can be dangerous if applied on the public road" only to have renounced it on your later response? I can't help it that you wrote this.

The fact that I come from track driving, based on maximum exploitation of the conditions, does not mean that this is the driving style applied on roads, let alone the driving style taught to others. Track driving is more than just cornering lines, it's about late braking and, indeed, utter acquaintance with the road. Therefore, based on our lesser knowledge of any particular road, we cannot drive it like we do the track.

We both had a lot of chances of driving/instructing/debating together and I know your driving style, as you do know mine. The main differences between our driving styles are in the rapidness of turning the wheel into the corner and the manner in which the car's weight is "distributed" over the two outside wheels. This is a significant difference, especially in competitive road driving (rallying), but neither of us teaches competitive driving on public roads. Advanced driving is a different thing.

Yes, I did take a rally driving course with you in GET, France at 1997, where I later instructed as a chief instructor. But even before that, at 1993 to '96, I passed several tuitions and raced professionally in the US, where I also instructed (at Russel Racing in Laguna Seca in 1996). I did learn a lot in France, I will tell you that. I had a great time and learned new things. The main technique I learned was how to slide the car into the corner, which helped me make the best out of my Peugeot 205 GTI. I assume you recall our distinctive opinions on driving, which originate from the different background of Lior and myself relative to yours.

Those very arguments and our experience helped us devise a method of driving which is based on the smoothest and most accurate performance and the fastest possible driving in the given safety allowances that will leave a big reserve for any possible mistake. It is through my various abroad travels as an automotive journalist, in a vast collection of European roadways which I wasn't necessarily acquainted with in advance, and... I'm still here with you. Seriously, in spite of unknown roads; tightening and successive corners, as well oncoming traffic, potholes and crests, never have I found myself on the opposite lane or shoulder of the road, which I can't say for all of my colleagues.

I've told my colleague about this thread and we have come to the conclusion that since there is no serious sliding on tarmac relative to gravel, road rallying is more like track driving. This can also be illustrated in the WRC, where the smoother drivers are faster. Nevertheless, there are differences in how the car is turned into the corner, more than in things like cornering lines, planning, anticipation or what not. Since proper track driving is not applicable on the road for said safety reasons, nor me neither any rational driver will behave like this on the road. The circuit is a different story. However, some of the track driving techniques can be advantageous on the road, as well as parallel rallying techniques. The difference is more of an attitude rather than the actual performance. Every driver has his style just like some cars prefer the refined driving styles while others like being abused.

From our experience, it's easier to learn how to slide than how not to slide. The point is that sliding techniques are much clearer than proper asphalt-driving techniques. In many cases the temptation of sliding the car (on tarmac and less so on gravel) is great and is also a good fun and to some it gives a greater feeling of safety (by always having the front wheels turning while the sliding rear wheels be the ones tucking the car into the corners) but it's necessarily less accurate and fast since the amount of sliding cannot always be controlled in the most "scientific" manner.

Of course there are exceptions, tarmac-driving masters like Re'm that turned this method into their practice, but it takes much more than merely knowing the technique in order to perform it neatly. It takes balls/confidence/co-operative car - all true. Some road cars refuse to follow this driving style and others flourish in it.

http://sf.tapuz.co.il/shirshur-207-27383512.htm

[willismith]

Hi Astraist, you have shared nice article on Driving Styles. with two different type Rally driving and Track Driving. It is helpful.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I assume "Salon and Formula Racing" involves MX-5's and various products from Vidal Sassoon ?

[WhoseGeneration]

Utter nonsense.
Road driving is a third style of driving.
Not at all related to any form of competition driving, all of which is only about winning, to be first.
The basic difference?, road driving, I should drive in a manner that will mean I and my vehicle arrive safely without having disturbed any other road users.
Competition driving?, I should accept that I and or my vehicle might not survive.
But down to me and my desire to win.

[IVORTHE DRIVER]

Hi,

I held off reading the OP (I hate long winded items, it makes my brain hurt) but somewhere in there is a line "there is no sliding in rallying on tarmac"...I doubt the owners of any rear wheel drive rally cars will agree with that

I also wonder what my local police will say if I start practising rally techniques on the road to work.

Rally/Track/Road = 3 different styles that also require 3 different approaches, take bits from each of the first 2 by all means but I am fairly certain you would soon come unstuck if you choose to adopt any one for everyday use.

Ivor

[WhoseGeneration]

Hi,
I held off reading the OP (I hate long winded items, it makes my brain hurt) but somewhere in there is a line "there is no sliding in rallying on tarmac"...I doubt the owners of any rear wheel drive rally cars will agree with that :
Ivor

Nope, correct.
Sideways, on tarmac, not going forwards.
Unless enough power to be able to drift, which is subtle.

[Astraist]

This has developed into quite an interesting discussion. I will now refer to a few points and clear them up. The main point is that this discussion refers (as some has already figured out) not the differences between the two styles as racing disciplines, but as disciplines for instructing road driving. I also believe in deriving elements and techniques from motorsport to everyday driving and have already justified it elsewhere.

In the discussion I translated, O'n himself refers to road driving as driving on an "open track". On a closed circuit, the conditions allow to push the car to the absolute limit and compete. Since these conditions do not apply on the public road, there is obviously no competitive element or 'pushing the limit' when driving on the road in a track "style." On the other hand, the track contributes important elements to one's road driving; Finesse, accuracy, forward vision focused far ahead, entering corners at a slow, late line for good vision around the bend - some of the key elements of any advanced driving program.

Re'm argued that if we base our road driving style on the manner of driving popular in tarmac rallying (not gravel!), it would suit normal road driving even better since the rally stage is not a closed circuit, but rather an actual public road. O'n, a respected track driver in our community, argues back with the same points I mentioned above: The track driver, like the road driver, always drives in the speed that suits the conditions, it's just that on the actual race track, the conditions allow to drive very fast, not so much as they do on the road. Furthermore, the track technique allows to exert maximum performance from a given slip angle, enabling the road driver to keep a much larger "reserve" than he would have without the track driving style.

At this point the discussion moves on into the actual differences between the two styles and the two driving styles adopted by the two antagonists in the debate: Being a track driver, O'n talks about a style that is much more roadcraft-like: Smooth, precise, no rocking of the vehicle. On the other hand, the style that Re'm adopted during his competitive years, was such where he would slide the car coming into the corner. In theory, the car should be driven as it is on the track (where 'sideways=slow-ways'), but in action the rally driver needs to delay his turn-in point as to see further around the bend which, in turn, makes him committed to turn the car into the corner much more rapidly by generating a certain oversteer.

On the road, the difference would come to when, coming up to a tight corner, the former would have you turn the wheel a bit earlier and gradually, while the latter would have you hold the steering and than turn the car into the corner at once. Personally, I combine the two methods, using the latter when there is no choice but to compromise stability for forward vision.

[WhoseGeneration]

Astraist, perhaps I should explain the types of rally driving in the UK.
Road Rallying is a competition, on open Public roads, based upon a navigator being able to plot the route, on an Ordnance Survey map, from instructions provided by the organisers of the rally. This takes place in the darker months, overnight, when roads are less used. However, the average speed will be no more than 30mph.
This is a simple explanation, there is more to it, however, competitors are required to obey all traffic laws.
This form of Rallying was banned in France about thirty years ago.
However, it's easier to close Public roads in France, for Stage Rallying, than in the UK.
The other form of rallying is Stage Rallying, always on closed roads, which, apart from 3 events, are on non public roads.
There are two types of Stage Rallying, single venue, where the stages are on one venue, such as an airfield, either active but not for the event, or disused, other military facilities or a race circuit and multi venue where competitive stages are at different venues providing gravel or tarmac, sometimes both and there is travel between, on public roads, where, obviously, competitors have to obey all traffic laws and time is allowed for that.
These rallies have easier navigation instructions, map, diagram or pace notes.
These though, as with all rallies, even WRC, require the organisers to design stages such that certain average speeds, defined by the authorising authorities, should not be exceeded.
Now, the idea on Stage Rallies is that the codriver will "read " the road to the driver, be that from a diagram, a map or pace notes such that the driver will not have to solely rely on his or her vision of the road ahead.
"Limit point" doesn't come into it.
Apologies if you already know all this about Rally driving, it's just that I don't understand why it's relevant to the majority who might want to just drive better on Public roads.

[Astraist]

What you talked about is what is called in French "Rally Raid" or navigaion races. I am talking about stage rallying, like the rally stages of the WRC that take place on tarmac. On a rally stage there is an enormous stress on vision ahead and on using the limit point, as well as effective steering, proper dynamics of the vehicle, bend lines for stability and forward vision, readiness to surprises, etc.

In the advanced driving tuitions held in Israel, the instructors always have an experience in competitive rallying or track racing, and they bring it with them to the road: We teach rally driving oriented steering styles, we teach to take corners like rally or track drivers (in terms of lines and car dynamics) and we teach to look far ahead and anticipate - which is what both track and rally drivers have to do.

[WhoseGeneration]

What you talked about is what is called in French "Rally Raid" or navigaion races. I am talking about stage rallying, like the rally stages of the WRC that take place on tarmac. On a rally stage there is an enormous stress on vision ahead and on using the limit point, as well as effective steering, proper dynamics of the vehicle, bend lines for stability and forward vision, readiness to surprises, etc.

In the advanced driving tuitions held in Israel, the instructors always have an experience in competitive rallying or track racing, and they bring it with them to the road: We teach rally driving oriented steering styles, we teach to take corners like rally or track drivers (in terms of lines and car dynamics) and we teach to look far ahead and anticipate - which is what both track and rally drivers have to do.

We really have a problem talking via this medium, I woud maintain that , particularly on WRC events, that "vision ahead" is not of the greatest concern, the driver described pace notes being read by the co driver giving the driver the severity of approaching hazards, leaving the driver to observe "local " conditions on the road surface, those together with the approaching described hazard, determining the application of the car.
I'm very sorry but, as others here have previously tried to explain to you, we in the UK, can produce Advanced level ROAD drivers without any reference to or concern for track or rally driving.
No green or yellow flags on the road, or marshals at every junction, see the difference?

[IVORTHE DRIVER]

See, you can always rely on WG to put it better than the rest of us

Ivor

[GJD]

we in the UK, can produce Advanced level ROAD drivers without any reference to or concern for track or rally driving.

Of course we can, by circular argument. We in the UK have definition of "advanced level road driving" and it's a thing you can achieve without reference to track or rally driving.

It's perfectly possible that someone could define "advanced level road driving" as a different thing - something that could not be achieved without reference to track or rally driving.

Whether such a different definition would be of interest to someone familiar with the definition common in the UK would be a matter of personal choice. Whether someone familiar with the definition in the UK felt such a different definition had any value would be a matter of personal opinion. If two people were to try and have a conversation where they each used the same words to mean different things, confusion might ensue.

[Gareth]

That's why it is sometimes difficult to have a conversation with someone from another geographic area and/or culture, and why forebearance in all parties is particularly helpful.

[TripleS]

That's why it is sometimes difficult to have a conversation with someone from another geographic area and/or culture, and why forebearance in all parties is particularly helpful.

That diplomacy course seems to be going very well, Gareth. I don't suppose you'd be minded to let me have details......

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

Perhaps we might wonder why there is so little overlap in the UK between the worlds of motorsport and advanced road driving. Many of the best road drivers of my acquaintance feel that track experience has helped them to improve their road driving; and a couple of the best road advanced driving instructors of the last generation were competent track racers (I am thinking of Mike Franey and John Lyon). In general, however, track racers don't seem to find road driving interesting enough to work in this field.

I would be fascinated to know how we would assess the road driving skills and instruction of the Israeli's whom Astraist quotes. I suspect that there would be a lot of scope for cross fertilisation.

Astra, we are waiting for you to come and drive with us in England - somehow that seems more likely than that a crowd of us will come and drive with you in Israel.