Signalling on the motorway

[nonoblitus]

Hi

First time posting on the forum although I have been reading it for a few months; I’ve found it a good source of information as I’ve been working towards passing my IAM advanced driving test. I’ve got a question about signalling when overtaking on a motorway I would be interested to hear some views on. This stems from an assessment drive I had a few weeks ago.

During the drive I overtook a lorry on a motorway. After completing the overtake I moved back from the centre lane to the left hand lane while signalling my intention to do so. After the assessment drive finished the observer who was assessing me said that the signal was unnecessary as the lorry driver should be expecting me to drive in the left hand lane.

I can understand the logic to this, however, I was wondering if any forum members have a rule of thumb with how this interacts with the advice in Roadcraft and the IAM ‘How to be a better driver’ book which states that indication is required when another road user might benefit. I would think that indicating is necessary if you were, for example, being tailgated and wanted to change lanes or if the motorway was particularly busy. However, would signalling always be advised if you were moving from lane 3 into lane 2?

Grateful for any views. The observers comments got me thinking and since then I’ve cut back the amount of signalling I’m doing when motorway driving although there’s obviously a thin line between not giving enough information and unnecessary signalling.

Thanks

NonOblitus

[jasonh]

Indicating when being tailgated can be dangerous. If the following driver assumes that you, like 90% of other motorway drivers, do the old 'flash 'n' go' signal and move over immediately after one flash of the bulb, and you don't, he may end up even closer to your rear end.

I only indicate when there is a good benefit e.g. if I am moving into a gap between two vehicles in nearside lane and (though allowing a good gap) think there is a need. Perhaps for instance there might not be as big a speed differential between me and the nearside vehicles as there would be with a lorry for instance.

If I am moving into the nearside lane well ahead of a heavy goods vehicle or other vehicle which is going slow enough that it is still dropping back, I don't see any benefit indicating to them, so assuming there is no pressing reason to do so for those in my lane then I wouldn't signal.

Like everything there are no hard and fast rules and it really depends on each situation, but these are the general principles I have in mind.

[ROG]

DITTO to the last post

[fungus]

I would agree with Jason and Rog on this. When moving from lane 3 to lane 2 I would signal if there is a possibility of a vehicle moving out from lane 1 into lane 2.

[ScoobyChris]

I was wondering if any forum members have a rule of thumb with how this interacts with the advice in Roadcraft and the IAM

If you think of signalling like initiating a conversation, its purpose is to let someone know what your intention is and the expectation is often that there is some kind of response to acknowledge it before you commit to the manouevre. It might be obvious eg a flash of the headlamps and braking to allow you to change lane, or more subtle like a driver backing off the throttle and holding position.

In the situation where you were with your observer, the signal was deemed of no value as you weren't telling the lorry driver anything he didn't know, however, if there was a car closing on you during your overtake, a signal to them that you were moving to lane 1 may have been beneficial to them in planning how they would pass you.

I don't like rules but one approach you could explore is to always signal unless there's a reason not to...

Chris

[Ancient]

Another point to consider is that signaling even when there is no direct benefit to the driver you are moving back in lane with, sends a message to other drivers in sight "I am someone who signals before manoeuvring"; they might even recognise it as such .

Predictability is (IMO) a sign of good driving.

[hir]

In the situation where you were with your observer, the signal was deemed of no value ...

... because it was of no benefit to the lorry driver.

This is a better way of explaining the reason for not signalling in this situation than the one you were given by your observer..."the signal was unnecessary as the lorry driver should be expecting me to drive in the left hand lane. "

The logical thought process that follows the reason given by your observer would be ...

(1) How do I know what the lorry driver is actually expecting me to do - my observer said he should be expecting me to move to lane 1 but, what if he wasn't expecting me to do that?

(2) Should I put a signal on to move to lane 1 just in case the lorry driver is not expecting me to so?

It doesn't take long to see how illogical your observer's explanation is. You stated ...the advice in Roadcraft and the IAM ‘How to be a better driver’ book which states that indication is required when another road user might benefit. This is the only advice you need, don't try and link it to the wrong explanation given to you by your observer.

[jcochrane]

Should I feel that I needed to give a left turn signal for the vehicle just overtaken (to benefit them) I would question myself whether I was returning to soon.

On the other point of returning to lane 2 from 3 I would consider the benefit of a signal to a vehicle in lane 1 and 2 but even in this circumstance I would still try to time the return and the relevant speeds, mine and the other two vehicles, to avoid the need for a signal. Generally speaking I usually think of a signal as asking other road users "may I change lane, turn or whatever" rather than saying to them "this is what I want or intend to do."

[Horse]

I would agree with Jason and Rog on this. When moving from lane 3 to lane 2 I would signal if there is a possibility of a vehicle moving out from lane 1 into lane 2.

I'd probably try not to drive into a location that someone else might want to fill

Wait a little later, so you're just past that vehicle, then move back.

[MGF]

What if there is pressure from behind to pull over? Staying out might antagonise them, encourage tailgating and possibly an undertake.

[GJD]

What if there is pressure from behind to pull over? Staying out might antagonise them, encourage tailgating and possibly an undertake.

Are you responding to Horse? Are we talking about a situation where you want to delay moving from lane 3 to 2 briefly because you don't think it would be safe to do it right now - i.e. there is space to move into lane 2 right now but you suspect someone in lane 1 might be eyeing up that space too?

[jcochrane]

What if there is pressure from behind to pull over? Staying out might antagonise them, encourage tailgating and possibly an undertake.

If that happened to me I think I would be looking carefully at my overtake to see where I went wrong and whether I should have done the overtake or not in the first place. With the correct planning and judgement this situation should not arise, I would have thought.

Maybe your question relates to lane driving on a busy motorway and the car behind tailgates?

[Gareth]

What if there is pressure from behind to pull over? Staying out might antagonise them, encourage tailgating and possibly an undertake.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same situation ... if I were in lane 3 and wanted to move into lane 2 but I was worried that a driver from lane 1 was thinking about moving out, and I was under pressure from a car behind, I would start to indicate slightly earlier, but make the move to lane 2 slightly later. The indicator would let the driver behind know my intention, and the slight delay before moving across would allow time to clear the vehicle that may be moving from lane 1.

[Kevin]

As someone who occassionally drives lorries on motorways, I wouldn't particularly benefit from someone signalling their intention to return to lane 1 having just overtaken me, so I believe your observer's comment to be reasonable in that there was probably no need to signal.

However, one of the occassions when such a signal might be of benefit is if I, in the lorry, have been overtaken while in the process of passing an entry slip road onto a motorway or dual carriageway. There's a potential conflict between the car that's just overtaken me and is returning to lane 1, and any other vehicle that may be about to join the motorway. There's a tendancy for some drivers, when they are about to join a motorway and they see a lorry travelling in lane 1, to accelerate and join the motorway at the very limit of the entry slip road, cutting in front of the lorry. A driver changing from lane 2 to lane 1 may not have been able to see the car on the slip road. The reason I would benefit from such a signal is that in those circumstances, I would be expecting the driver who's just overtaken me to delay returning to lane 1 until we had both passed the entry slip road, thereby reducing the risk of coming into conflict with another vehicle attempting to join, but if I knew, from the use of the indicator, that the driver was intending to return to lane 1 just as a car was attempting to race me to the end of the slip road, I would back off the throttle or brake to allow more space and give both drivers the opportunity of a better view.

[IVORTHE DRIVER]

I go along with most comments here that from lane 2 into lane 1 a signal may not be needed unless a slip road is also in the equation, in which case I would delay my return to lane 1 (probably with a signal on) until I was certain there was no one trying to join from my left.

From lane 3 into lane 2 is a whole different ball game as other traffic could then be affected and will require much more observation therefore I believe a signal in this situation might be helpful to others, for my own safety I would consider it if again a slip road was also involved, which will normally involve undertaking traffic coming up from the left.

My point of view as the person being overtaken would be "thankyou" as it is always nice to know others intentions even if they are only doing what is expected of them.

Can you signal too much? probably not as other drivers can choose to ignore them anyway.

Can you signal incorrectly? oh yes!

Guess it comes back to common sense again

Ivor