The four "S"?

[Horse]

Initially I was surprised by Mark's comment, but on further consideration I agree the limit point is less readily identified at a crest, compared with a bend. It's not as precise.

What can it be other than the furthest bit of tarmac visible?

Use anything else as guidance, for sure, but the absolute VP is created by the point where road and sky (or other background) meet.

[TripleS]

Initially I was surprised by Mark's comment, but on further consideration I agree the limit point is less readily identified at a crest, compared with a bend. It's not as precise.

What can it be other than the furthest bit of tarmac visible?

Use anything else as guidance, for sure, but the absolute VP is created by the point where road and sky (or other background) meet.

I know it is, but (for the moment) I still think there is something in what Mark says.

In the case of a bend, the limit point is typically where a more or less horizontal line (the road edge) meets a more or less vertical line represented by some sort of solid obstacle to further vision along the road. That seems to me a fairly clearly identifiable point, and the distance to it can therefore be judged fairly accurately.

When we are approaching a summit I think it is less easy to accurately judge the distance to the last bit of road surface you can see, especially if the summit is actually a large radius curve as opposed to a sharp hump.

That's maybe not the best way of explaining it, but I know what I mean.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Horse]

Initially I was surprised by Mark's comment, but on further consideration I agree the limit point is less readily identified at a crest, compared with a bend. It's not as precise.

What can it be other than the furthest bit of tarmac visible?

Use anything else as guidance, for sure, but the absolute VP is created by the point where road and sky (or other background) meet.

I know it is, but (for the moment) I still think there is something in what Mark says.

In the case of a bend, the limit point is typically where a more or less horizontal line (the road edge) meets a more or less vertical line represented by some sort of solid obstacle to further vision along the road. That seems to me a fairly clearly identifiable point, and the distance to it can therefore be judged fairly accurately.

When we are approaching a summit I think it is less easy to accurately judge the distance to the last bit of road surface you can see, especially if the summit is actually a large radius curve as opposed to a sharp hump.

That's maybe not the best way of explaining it, but I know what I mean.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Actually, I do have a fiar idea of what you mean, in that there isn't a clear-cut 'point', the [vertical] curve 'blends' or 'fades' instead. Added to that, any obstruction (albeit not surface problem) will come into view before the actual road surface does.

Mind you, for 'bend' LP, I tyically have a slightly skewed idea about it

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2008/ ... -safe.html

[Andy]

Should the answer to the question in the OP have been "I'm sorry I don't know. Could you remind me which section of Roadcraft (RoSPA) or HTABx (IAM) are the 4 S's described in please?"

[crr003]

Should the answer to the question in the OP have been "I'm sorry I don't know. Could you remind me which section of Roadcraft (RoSPA) or HTABx (IAM) are the 4 S's described in please?"

If it's IAM, his Observer should have provided the information.

http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/48-what-the-examiner-expects

[Andy]

The key thing that is stated on the IAM website is "What the examiner expects on the test is based on the Police system of car/bike control and is clearly defined in the IAM's own manual How to be a better driver/rider ". It does not quote 4 S's.

There are enough acronyms in the world of advanced riding / driving without any more that aren't in the book!

Interestly in the IAM world, the POWER/POWDER/POWDERS/POWDERY [delete as appropriate for your local examiner] accronym isn't anywhere to be found in HTBABR either.

[crr003]

The key thing that is stated on the IAM website is "What the examiner expects on the test is based on the Police system of car/bike control and is clearly defined in the IAM's own manual How to be a better driver/rider ". It does not quote 4 S's.

Is that not too literal a desire?
I would say the book covers all the areas needed to get you ready for test, but the Observer can express the overall requirements under the banner of "4Ss"

[Horse]

The key thing that is stated on the IAM website is "What the examiner expects on the test is based on the Police system of car/bike control and is clearly defined in the IAM's own manual How to be a better driver/rider ". It does not quote 4 S's.

Is that not too literal a desire?
I would say the book covers all the areas needed to get you ready for test, but the Observer can express the overall requirements under the banner of "4Ss"

So is it covered in Observer training notes?

[crr003]

So is it covered in Observer training notes?

I've just had a look a look through my old files and it was - for my Group.
I have a stapled booklet entitled "Observer Notes", dated April 2005, and it does directly refer to 'the four "S"s'
Safe
Systematic
Smooth
Speed

This was reinforced with a copy of the sheet "What the Examiner expects" from IAM - handy to give this to Associates to help them understand what's wanted on test. I noticed after googling for it that it appears on several Group websites too.

But, variety is the spice of life, and it wouldn't surprise me if other Groups will/will not have included it in their training.

[Andy]

The key thing that is stated on the IAM website is "What the examiner expects on the test is based on the Police system of car/bike control and is clearly defined in the IAM's own manual How to be a better driver/rider ". It does not quote 4 S's.

Is that not too literal a desire?
I would say the book covers all the areas needed to get you ready for test, but the Observer can express the overall requirements under the banner of "4Ss"

I agree! Observers/tutors are completely free to use any methods, descriptions or acronyms they believe will assist an Associate in getting to test standard, but the OP referred to an examiner asking a candidate about the 4S's.

My suggestion is simply that examiners should limit their questions strictly to what is written in the HC and Roadcraft/HTBABx.

[Horse]

If it's IAM, his Observer should have provided the information.

http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/48-what-the-examiner-expects

Ta for the link, v. interesting.

Any idea where IAM borrowed it from?

Seems odd if it's info an examiner expects to use, but isn't in the 'how to pass' books. Or is it, but people have just missed it?

[crr003]

If it's IAM, his Observer should have provided the information.

http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/48-what-the-examiner-expects

Ta for the link, v. interesting.

Any idea where IAM borrowed it from?

Seems odd if it's info an examiner expects to use, but isn't in the 'how to pass' books. Or is it, but people have just missed it?

No idea where it came from. I've heard of it since 2003 when I started IAM.
I don't think it's in HTBABD or PYADT. (I've had a quick scan through).
There was a thread on here (maybe before it was hacked; that one time, at band camp). I can remember Von (pre-enlightenment ) explaining why System came before smoothness. Can't find it now though.

[vonhosen]

If it's IAM, his Observer should have provided the information.

http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/48-what-the-examiner-expects

Ta for the link, v. interesting.

Any idea where IAM borrowed it from?

Seems odd if it's info an examiner expects to use, but isn't in the 'how to pass' books. Or is it, but people have just missed it?

Just look where the Chief Examiners come from.

[Horse]

If it's IAM, his Observer should have provided the information.

http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/48-what-the-examiner-expects

Ta for the link, v. interesting.

Any idea where IAM borrowed it from?

Seems odd if it's info an examiner expects to use, but isn't in the 'how to pass' books. Or is it, but people have just missed it?

Just look where the Chief Examiners come from.

My binoculars can't see that far back in time

Has it ever, specifically, been in any edition of Roadcraft, do you know?