Whose Fault...

[TripleS]

Being serious for a moment I very much wish we could persuade all those who are Brake members and who drive to work towards passing an advanced driving test. You'd think they are a natural recruiting ground for the IAM and RoADAR, since they already have concerns about the standard of driving. It would seem somewhat odd if they (individually and collectively) feel they have nothing to learn about becoming safer drivers.

That seems to me a very fair suggestion, although my fear is that they might take the attitude that their own driving is perfectly OK. The basis for this might well be the claim that they never exceed speed limits and generally drive quite slowly, and they never break any of the published rules - HC stuff etc. - and they never use mobile phones or fiddle with CDs, or talk to their passengers, or allow any other distractions to interfere with their driving.

in view of that, I expect they feel they are doing all that is necessary and appropriate, and that undertaking further training would add nothing useful to their safe driving abilities. They probably feel their time is better spent demanding that the government and vehicle manufacturers apply yet more controls and restrictions on all drivers, and that these be rigorously enforced by the application of technology - either within vehicles or externally - or other means, whatever it takes.

That is what I fear their response would be, but nothing would please me better than to find I'm wrong about that. I would much prefer to find that they are genuinely willing to seek better road safety by supporting campaigns for better driving, rather than demands for yet more measures to constrain drivers. Quite frankly I find their current stance utterly depressing, and I simply do not believe it is the right way to improve our road safety performance.

In fact, and this may seem a little far fetched, I think Brake's current campaigns might even reduce drivers' enthusiasm for taking further training, the thinking being that we're not going to be allowed to drive in any meaningful sense anyhow, so it isn't worth the effort and expense. Of course there will still be those who will work to improve their own driving for the personal satisfaction it yields, and all credit to them, but they have always been a tiny minority, and I think they will be become even more of an endangered species, which is an extremely sad state of affairs.

Sorry to be so negative.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[michael769]

I often wonder how many BRAKE activists are actually drivers?

[vonhosen]

Being serious for a moment I very much wish we could persuade all those who are Brake members and who drive to work towards passing an advanced driving test. You'd think they are a natural recruiting ground for the IAM and RoADAR, since they already have concerns about the standard of driving. It would seem somewhat odd if they (individually and collectively) feel they have nothing to learn about becoming safer drivers.

Just because they don't (or don't wish to) join the IAM isn't necessarily indicative of them thinking they have nothing to learn as drivers.

[TripleS]

Being serious for a moment I very much wish we could persuade all those who are Brake members and who drive to work towards passing an advanced driving test. You'd think they are a natural recruiting ground for the IAM and RoADAR, since they already have concerns about the standard of driving. It would seem somewhat odd if they (individually and collectively) feel they have nothing to learn about becoming safer drivers.

Just because they don't (or don't wish to) join the IAM isn't necessarily indicative of them thinking they have nothing to learn as drivers.

Yes, that's true, but do they ever do anything at all to even recognise the merits of driver improvement, rather than seeking to improve road safety solely by means of ever more constraints? I'm not aware of any such thinking on their part.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

Just because they don't (or don't wish to) join the IAM isn't necessarily indicative of them thinking they have nothing to learn as drivers.

I don't care whether or not they join any particular organisation. I'd only suggest that using IAM or RoADAR volunteer observers is probably the cheapest way if a person isn't good at learning from books or videos, and that taking a test arranged via either of these organisations is a good way to check that a person has grasped the principles and is able to implement them well enough.

[TripleS]

Just because they don't (or don't wish to) join the IAM isn't necessarily indicative of them thinking they have nothing to learn as drivers.

I don't care whether or not they join any particular organisation. I'd only suggest that using IAM or RoADAR volunteer observers is probably the cheapest way if a person isn't good at learning from books or videos, and that taking a test arranged via either of these organisations is a good way to check that a person has grasped the principles and is able to implement them well enough.

Well maybe somebody from BRAKE could put in an appearance here and indicate their reaction to your suggestion. If they were to do that, I think it would be a little step forward, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

Come on BRAKE, show that you are at least willing to enter into some kind of debate. I can own up to being wrong: can you?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[fungus]

Just because they don't (or don't wish to) join the IAM isn't necessarily indicative of them thinking they have nothing to learn as drivers.

I don't care whether or not they join any particular organisation. I'd only suggest that using IAM or RoADAR volunteer observers is probably the cheapest way if a person isn't good at learning from books or videos, and that taking a test arranged via either of these organisations is a good way to check that a person has grasped the principles and is able to implement them well enough.

Well maybe somebody from BRAKE could put in an appearance here and indicate their reaction to your suggestion. If they were to do that, I think it would be a little step forward, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

Come on BRAKE, show that you are at least willing to enter into some kind of debate. I can own up to being wrong: can you?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I think you might be banging your head against a brick wall there.

I've only read Brakes website a couple of times, and that was some time ago, but interestingly, IIRC, although when it comes to private motorised transport they want draconian measures to control drivers behaviour, in the section on child pedestrians, they intimated that children are not being taught to use the road correctly and were not being taught to take more responsibility for their safety. With that in mind should they not be encouraging further training for drivers and riders to improve road safety and not the draconian measures that they advocate?

[lyndon]

I often wonder how many BRAKE activists are actually drivers?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'activists', but I see that FedEx Express were national sponsors for Brake's Road Safety Week in 2011.

[michael769]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'activists', but I see that FedEx Express were national sponsors for Brake's Road Safety Week in 2011.

I mean HQ staffers and active campaigners. Basically the ones that we see being quoted in the press.

[TripleS]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'activists', but I see that FedEx Express were national sponsors for Brake's Road Safety Week in 2011.

I mean HQ staffers and active campaigners. Basically the ones that we see being quoted in the press.

I work on the basis that all road users have a legitimate interest in road safety, but I am inclined to give more credence to those who drive and have a decent amount of experience and expertise - and I suspect that Brake spokespersons do not generally measure up very well on that basis. With the best will in the world they don't give me the impression of being balanced on the subject.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[lyndon]

I work on the basis that all road users have a legitimate interest in road safety, but I am inclined to give more credence to those who drive and have a decent amount of experience and expertise - and I suspect that Brake spokespersons do not generally measure up very well on that basis. With the best will in the world they don't give me the impression of being balanced on the subject.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I think the fact that FedEx Express supports them gives them a great deal of credibility. There are plenty of drivers represented there.

[jont]

I think the fact that FedEx Express supports them gives them a great deal of credibility. There are plenty of drivers represented there.

I find it ironic they are happy to take money from a courier/delivery company when many of their drivers are some of the least courteous if not downright dangerous of any on the road. I'm sure FedEx management get a warm fuzzy feeling from being seen to support a "good" cause and Brake are happy to take the money to further their political aims though, so both sides get something out of it

[TripleS]

I work on the basis that all road users have a legitimate interest in road safety, but I am inclined to give more credence to those who drive and have a decent amount of experience and expertise - and I suspect that Brake spokespersons do not generally measure up very well on that basis. With the best will in the world they don't give me the impression of being balanced on the subject.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I think the fact that FedEx Express supports them gives them a great deal of credibility. There are plenty of drivers represented there.

I don't know that "represented" is the relevant point there. No doubt there are plenty of drivers employed by FedEx, but drivers of what sort of quality? They may be very good, or they may not, I don't know; but in any case although FedEx may, as a company, support Brake, many of their drivers may not support Brake policies. If they are competent, thinking drivers, many of them may not care for Brake policies much at all.

In any event, I thought we were talking about the experience and expertise of the in-house Brake people themselves, not those who may support them, however numerous they may be. What matters (to me at any rate) are the qualifications held by the Brake hierarchy as a basis for them to devise and promote rational and sensible measures for improving road safety.

Most of what is issued from their carefully concealed base at Huddersfield is dictatorial anti-driving stuff, IMHO, not balanced proposals offered in a spirit that invites an open debate with any other parties. All they seem to want is for the government and vehicles manufacturers to impose Brake's ideas on the rest of us.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[michael769]

I think the fact that FedEx Express supports them gives them a great deal of credibility. There are plenty of drivers represented there.

CYNIC ALERT!

I don't think that FedEx choosing to support BRAKE means that they are representing their drivers when they do so. For many companies being seen to "support" road safety is simply another part part of their corporate responsibility hyperbole as much as with greenwash.

As with green issues for many companies it is a case of talking the talk but not walking the walk, for example pushing customers onto paperless billing to "save paper" and then continuing to send out vast volumes of unwanted junk mail is not IMO "green" or very environmentally responsible.

I don't know what (if any) programs for driver improvement FedEx may have, but I notice thay they certainly don't seem to publicise any, so I cannot comment about if the are "walking the walk"; but IMO for any company, who relies heavily on drivers, to be serious about road safety they need to be investing in some kind of driver improvement/skills maintenance program, not giving cash to a bunch of reactionary fools to try to look good.

Ok I will put my cynicism back in the bag now.

[TripleS]

I think the fact that FedEx Express supports them gives them a great deal of credibility. There are plenty of drivers represented there.

CYNIC ALERT!

I don't think that FedEx choosing to support BRAKE means that they are representing their drivers when they do so. For many companies being seen to "support" road safety is simply another part part of their corporate responsibility hyperbole as much as with greenwash.

As with green issues for many companies it is a case of talking the talk but not walking the walk, for example pushing customers onto paperless billing to "save paper" and then continuing to send out vast volumes of unwanted junk mail is not IMO "green" or very environmentally responsible.

I don't know what (if any) programs for driver improvement FedEx may have, but I notice thay they certainly don't seem to publicise any, so I cannot comment about if the are "walking the walk"; but IMO for any company, who relies heavily on drivers, to be serious about road safety they need to be investing in some kind of driver improvement/skills maintenance program, not giving cash to a bunch of reactionary fools to try to look good.

Ok I will put my cynicism back in the bag now.

I think you're quite right to let rip with a bit of cynicism on this subject, and you make a good point about companies waving the corporate flag. That's not something I'd thought about but you're probably right, and it does have the effect of making Brake look to be rather better supported than is truly the case within the population as a whole - and especially drivers.

Incidentally, I'm not sure it is right to refer to Brake as 'reactionary' - which I generally take to mean looking more favourably on previous regimes or eras, rather than the present ways of doing things. I think 'reactionary' better describes my position.

Best wishes all,
Dave.