HPC silver and gold

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby Gareth » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:37 pm


Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.

It's a bit like asking police drivers about their experiences of, what they needed to do and how they prepared for various police advanced driving courses, in that those courses are also not available for someone to turn up and take.

In both cases the answers could only be of academic interest, and in both cases information is available about the steps needed before they become more than just of academic interest.

In the case of the police advanced driving courses the first step would (presumably) be to join the police ...
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...
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Postby Russ_H » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:01 pm


Gareth wrote:
Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.


Well, this is simply answered. As I am always seeking to develop my driving, I thought that preparing
for membership of HPC would be one way of doing it. Like any thoughtful person, I decided to do a bit
of research before committing myself. I searched the archives, and did general web searches, and whilst
there was quite a bit of information available about "basic" membership, there was little else, so I thought
that I would ask on here.

I'd like to thank those members who sent me supportive messages.

The question I need to ask myself now is whether HPC is for me, bearing in mind some of the less welcoming responses that I received. And the answer is no, it's not for me, so I'll just have to find an alternative way of stretching myself. I'll make no further observations about this issue.

All the best to everyone.
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Postby daz6215 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:07 pm


Seems like a very elitist attitude emanating, no wonder the general public cant be bothered with AD :? Im sure there was someone on here not that long ago complaining of a similar thing!
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Postby Horse » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:05 am


Gareth wrote:
Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.

It's a bit like asking police drivers about their experiences of, what they needed to do and how they prepared for various police advanced driving courses, in that those courses are also not available for someone to turn up and take.

In the case of the police advanced driving courses the first step would (presumably) be to join the police ...


Not always true.

I know of one course which was available to the public (albeit motorcyclists only, and a very long waiting list that I was able to leapfrog 8) ), which was run by two Met trafpols), which was marked against their police riding standard.

However, it's worth being honest and saying that there was no theory test element, no slow control test, it was only road riding. Also, it was unfortunate that, due to a random technical problem (which seemed to fix itself as we arived back at base) with the police bike's speedo, my assessor was unable to comment on adherance to speed limits :? :lol:

If you're interested (and this was IIRC in '92), I was given 86%. My excuse is that I was riding a borrowed bike :oops:

I was marked on two sessions (the course was usually one day, mine was over two):
1. "Hesitansy . . . missed several overtakes . . . could use more of the road for positioning"
2. "Hesitancy gone . . . if anything, a little too much progress. Could still use more of the road particularly the right hand side to improve general visibility"
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Postby jcochrane » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:43 am


Horse wrote:Also, it was unfortunate that, due to a random technical problem (which seemed to fix itself as we arived back at base) with the police bike's speedo, my assessor was unable to comment on adherance to speed limits :? :lol:


Rings a bell to the time when I was being assessed prior to being invited to join police advanced driving instructors on their own training sessions. On approaching the first NSL sign the assessors referred to it as a derestriction sign. :roll: :shock: :D Maybe he was thinking of an earlier era. :wink:
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Postby Gareth » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:09 am


Russ_H wrote:I'll just have to find an alternative way of stretching myself.

There are a number of coaches that are generally well regarded that you might consider. Unfortunately the nearest I could suggest is about 160 miles south of you.

If you are actively seeking good professional coaches then perhaps others will have suggestions for any that are based within, say, 50 miles of Newcastle or Sunderland.
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Postby stefan einz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:48 pm


Russ_H wrote:
Gareth wrote:
Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.


Well, this is simply answered. As I am always seeking to develop my driving, I thought that preparing
for membership of HPC would be one way of doing it. Like any thoughtful person, I decided to do a bit
of research before committing myself. I searched the archives, and did general web searches, and whilst
there was quite a bit of information available about "basic" membership, there was little else, so I thought
that I would ask on here.

I'd like to thank those members who sent me supportive messages.

The question I need to ask myself now is whether HPC is for me, bearing in mind some of the less welcoming responses that I received. And the answer is no, it's not for me, so I'll just have to find an alternative way of stretching myself. I'll make no further observations about this issue.

All the best to everyone.


If you would like to know more about HPC, feel free to PM me and we can arrange to talk. I'd be very happy to answer any questions (I am the Club's Chairman). Whilst I know it is often convenient to use the interweb to do research, I hope you will find that a quick chat will answer your questions more effectively and efficiently. The Club isn't for everyone, but if you do love advanced driving and can relate to our three values - passionate about driving, focused on self improvement and fun loving - then it may be for you.

Cheers
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Postby playtent » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:13 pm


Gareth wrote:
Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.

It's a bit like asking police drivers about their experiences of, what they needed to do and how they prepared for various police advanced driving courses, in that those courses are also not available for someone to turn up and take.

In both cases the answers could only be of academic interest, and in both cases information is available about the steps needed before they become more than just of academic interest.

In the case of the police advanced driving courses the first step would (presumably) be to join the police ...


Gareth

I think the fact the courses are not available to everyone makes them more interesting to learn about? Wondering if one could pass must apply to more or less all courses out there. Then based on what you have been told determines if you think you could pass and if so, is it for you or not!
I would type up my whole course if someone really cared and what I could remember of my final drive. 20 days of assessment as it's ongoing is a little hard to recall but I wouldn't have a problem telling anyone about it.... Why would anyone else?

Regards
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Postby martine » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:25 pm


playtent wrote:I would type up my whole course if someone really cared and what I could remember of my final drive. 20 days of assessment as it's ongoing is a little hard to recall but I wouldn't have a problem telling anyone about it....

Well I'll say it before anyone else...I'd love a detailed description of your police advanced course both technically and your personal difficulties/triumphs etc.
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Postby jcochrane » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:31 pm


playtent wrote:
Gareth wrote:
Russ_H wrote:What motive, other than curiosity, could I possibly have for posting the question?

It's not clear what interest you or others would have in asking the question, given that these awards are only open to club members, and for the main purpose of helping them measure their (own) progress.

It's a bit like asking police drivers about their experiences of, what they needed to do and how they prepared for various police advanced driving courses, in that those courses are also not available for someone to turn up and take.

In both cases the answers could only be of academic interest, and in both cases information is available about the steps needed before they become more than just of academic interest.

In the case of the police advanced driving courses the first step would (presumably) be to join the police ...


Gareth

I think the fact the courses are not available to everyone makes them more interesting to learn about? Wondering if one could pass must apply to more or less all courses out there. Then based on what you have been told determines if you think you could pass and if so, is it for you or not!
I would type up my whole course if someone really cared and what I could remember of my final drive. 20 days of assessment as it's ongoing is a little hard to recall but I wouldn't have a problem telling anyone about it.... Why would anyone else?

Regards


I think the problem here is that there is no formal training or course. As I've said before it's not a question of training for a test. Through membership, over a number of years, a member would get to drive with many other members, take training from the Gatekeepers and where possible persue opportunities to learn and develop their driving. A Gold Assessment is only that, an assessment. It's not a test as such. Members are olso encouraged to develop their own style of driving. The formal assessment, if you choose to ask for one, will as has been said before will help gauge your own personal progress to date.

It's easy to see how it might be thought to be a test, like the IAM or ROSPA, but it would be wrong to think of it in that way. Therefore, on your assessment you drive as you would normally drive. It does not help to try and emulate precisely another Gold drivers style to gain Gold but develop your own style. You're not on test but asking for your present driving to be assessed. It helps to measure progress so far and confirm that you are on the right track. Gold is definitely not an end in itself, just another stepping stone.

I don't think that those who have gained Gold are trying to be secretive or evasive. Training, if that is what it is to be called, is over many years and with many different people and covers so much ground. There's too much to put into a few words. The assessment is a personal assessment. Whilst there will be much in common with those who hold the Gold award the drives they give are also likely to be different reflecting their own personal style.

These are my thoughts, others might see it differently
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Postby Gareth » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:02 pm


playtent wrote:I wouldn't have a problem telling anyone about it.... Why would anyone else?

I hope my reasons are clear - that these courses/assessments are for HPC members who like to have targets to measure their progress - but even tho' I think anything I can relate ultimately isn't that interesting I will try to rise to your challenge. I have to say, in passing, that if the OP had mentioned his stated aim in his opening post then maybe he would have had a different reaction ...

These are based on my memories from some years past, and on my particular experiences. Everybody has a different journey, and how they get to any particular point may both be very different, and seem very different to them. If anyone wants to get a better flavour about what is generally expected, related by people more erudite than I, they could read 'Expert Driving The Police Way' by John Miles, and 'High-Performance Driving for You' by Tom Wisdom. The ISBN numbers for both have been in my profile forever. I should probably add John Lyon's new book, which is available from Amazon, published by Haynes, as it also seems good.

So, the Silver award as described in the current version of the standards document, was a night drive. It has often been described as maintaining the club's entry standard but demonstrated during the hours of darkness but, I think, that sells it short. There are obvious differences based on how vision is different at night, and the techniques and requirements are a bit different as well. For me, it felt like a mixture of a course and assessment - I'd heard tales about the then assessor, John Lyon, telling people that if they didn't dip before an on-coming vehicle came into view they'd abort the drive and return to base.

My preparations mainly consisted of asking other members about their experiences and trying to follow their advice. Clean windscreen and well aimed headlights seemed to be crucial, then adding in the default of using main beam. Can't say I practiced much, and I don't think there was an easy way to prepare me for what transpired.

I visited John at the start of a November evening, a little over a year after I'd joined the club, with worries that my lights weren't behaving themselves -- I owned an old car that was somewhat temperamental -- so I stopped off at a garage to buy replacement bulbs and to adjust the aim. I wasn't entirely satisfied but off I went anyway as time was pressing. As the day was ending fog or mist was creeping in, setting the scene for my particular night drive. It only got worse which made driving interesting, to say the least. Not quite a pea-souper but visibility was mostly very poor indeed.

John actively encouraged me to work harder through the evening, taking opportunities to make progress where the fog thinned or we dipped below it. Similarly overtaking, which was difficult although I managed a couple. I would say I learned a lot from his comments, but they were all subtle points, like dipping early approaching a left bend and, perhaps, allowing the extra vision by dipping slightly later coming up to a right bend. Some years after I noticed how, if you get it right, the dipped splay to the left gives a lot of illumination, although leaning the car also helps.

One thing I've realised from the sessions spent with John is that that he doesn't much comment on things you are doing to his satisfaction, so I only remember his comments about things I did wrong! And it's only from talking to others that you manage to fill in the missing details. Eventually the evening drive came to an end and, in spite of the fog, he told me I'd passed. Essentially I think it was about keeping everything under very tight control but being quick to make use of opportunities as they presented themselves.
Last edited by Gareth on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby martine » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:18 pm


Very interesting Gareth - thanks for that...sounds like a very demanding drive. Personally the one type of weather I hate is fog.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:45 pm


I really, really, need to get the night drive done. I actually love driving at night, despite my gradually deteriorating eyesight, because of the different opportunities it affords. If I want to progress in the Club measurement scheme, this is the first hurdle I must overcome.

Back to the OP, Russ, PLEASE don't be discouraged by any tone you've perceived in the responses. As I, and I'm sure others have said, to drive with a club member is only a PM or a phone call away, and you'll have a much better idea whether you want to pursue that avenue or not. You may also come to understand more of the club ethos and the subtle reasons behind the particular responses you've had at different stages of this thread. Please don't dismiss it out of hand.
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Postby WhoseGeneration » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:54 am


Russ_H wrote:so I'll just have to find an alternative way of stretching myself.



Can be done everyday, just watch out for the official "observers".
Then, a trackday or two, with a decent instructor.
There's no magic, it's about a thinking approach.
Always a commentary, spoken or not.
Keeps one safe. One hopes.
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Postby waremark » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:55 pm


WhoseGeneration wrote:
Russ_H wrote:so I'll just have to find an alternative way of stretching myself.



Can be done everyday, just watch out for the official "observers".
Then, a trackday or two, with a decent instructor.
There's no magic, it's about a thinking approach.

This post seems not to value the input that a top road driving coach can give even to excellent drivers. (By the way, the HPC gatekeepers (among others) are suitable top road driving coached).
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