Crossing staggard junctions.

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby GJD » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:53 pm


MGF wrote:
GJD wrote:...How would you adapt that test for the case of a vehicle incapable of travelling as fast as the priority vehicle, or limited by law to a slower speed?


I would expect the driver to wait for a suitable gap in the traffic taking into account the speed of his own vehicle in relation to the priority traffic.


Perhaps DB's test could be adapted for the case I suggested thusly: the test could become whether you are travelling in the same direction and speed as the priority vehicle, or the maximum speed the vehicle is capable of/permitted to do if that is slower than the priority vehicle, before you then engage on some manoeuvre which requires him to slow. To be honest though, I can't now remember what was in my mind at half past midnight when I posed that question... :)

But if DB's test (with or without some modification for slow vehicles) is the definition of being established, then the OP is never established. The OP would probably never even be established by that definition if the major road was NSL and the turnings were staggered by two or three hundred yards. He's not going to accelerate all the way up to 60 in that short distance.

I think there's another concept that has to have some relevance, which is reaching the point where, by virtue of your position and speed, you are now indistinguishable from someone who had been travelling along the priority road intending to make the same manoeuvre (the right turn in this case).

While you are crossing the Give Way line and not yet aligned with the priority road, you clearly haven't reached that point yet. While you are accelerating up to whatever speed you're going to attain before slowing for the right turn (not much if the stagger is only a couple of car lengths), you haven't reached that point yet. But once you are slowing for the right turn at the same position and speed as someone would be if they had approached along the priority road to make the same right turn, then you have reached that point. If someone then comes up behind you and has to slow, have you broken the Give Way law?
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:27 pm


Let's take this from the point of view of the driver of the priority vehicle coming from the right:

"Junction coming up on the left"
"Ah, there's a car waiting to turn left"
"Let's hope he doesn't ... oh, he has" (checking mirror and easing off the gas)
"Never mind, let's hope he gets a move on ... oh b*gger, he won't, he's turning right / stopped broadside across my lane*" (braking firmly)
... stops ...
... waits for tractor to pass and OP to clear off ...
"Well, that was a minute of my life I'll never get back! Sigh ..." (engaging 1st gear and moving off again, followed by a queue of similarly stationary / slowed traffic)

* delete as applicable
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Postby GJD » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:51 pm


Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Let's take this from the point of view of the driver of the priority vehicle coming from the right:

"Junction coming up on the left"
"Ah, there's a car waiting to turn left"
"Let's hope he doesn't ... oh, he has" (checking mirror and easing off the gas)
"Never mind, let's hope he gets a move on ... oh b*gger, he won't, he's turning right / stopped broadside across my lane*" (braking firmly)
... stops ...
... waits for tractor to pass and OP to clear off ...
"Well, that was a minute of my life I'll never get back! Sigh ..." (engaging 1st gear and moving off again, followed by a queue of similarly stationary / slowed traffic)

* delete as applicable


I know. But how far away are you when he pulls out? What about:

"Junction coming up on the left"
"Ah, there's a car waiting to turn left"
"Let's hope he doesn't ... oh, he has"
"Never mind, let's hope he gets a move on ... oh b*gger, he won't, he's turning right" (checking mirror and easing off the gas)
... slows down gently and stops ...
... waits for tractor to pass and OP to clear off ...
"Well, that was a minute of my life I'll never get back! Sigh ..." (engaging 1st gear and moving off again, followed by a queue of similarly stationary / slowed traffic)
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:54 pm


Could be never stops at all - but the OP gave the impression they were going to have to. In the case of slowing down gently, the following traffic will catch up more, potentially, and more drivers will be woken from their zen-like trance.

Agree there can be more than one interpretation :)
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Postby 7db » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:50 pm


GJD wrote:I think there's another concept that has to have some relevance, which is reaching the point where, by virtue of your position and speed, you are now indistinguishable from someone who had been travelling along the priority road intending to make the same manoeuvre (the right turn in this case).


I like this idea. It solves the problem of the as yet unseen priority vehicle which you raise.

This and the issue of speed (prevailing traffic?) are about interpretations of "established" which for me is the key concept.

Are you properly established without making someone (to avoid accident) slow or swerve?
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Postby foxtrot_mike » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:04 pm


Thanks for these interesting comments.

The Junction is here
http://g.co/maps/z56e6

I cant remember what happened but I think i underestimated the speed of the tractor
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Postby ROG » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:14 pm


foxtrot_mike wrote:The Junction is here
http://g.co/maps/z56e6


I would not go until I could drive straight across looking at that junction
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Postby greenyaris » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:19 pm


ROG wrote:
foxtrot_mike wrote:The Junction is here
http://g.co/maps/z56e6


I would not go until I could drive straight across looking at that junction

Quite so, Rog. Look right, look left. stay!
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Postby fungus » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:19 pm


I would agree with ROG and greenyaris on this one.
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