.

[TripleS]

Instead, a driver should use the brakes to slow, but also ensure that the car is in gear and downshift as necessary to allow shifting back to acceleration, should it be desired to avoid a hazard behind or maintain progress once the reason of deceleration has been removed.

I'm trying to picture what you mean. I'm not sure if it's different to the concept of a single braking phase, followed by a single gear change. Would you potentially make more than one down-change between the time you start braking and the time you start accelerating again?

I don't know about 'im, but I might well do that. Between coming off the throttle and beginning to accelerate again, I allow myself whatever periods of braking and however many gearchanges I feel appropriate. My preference is not to get bogged down with rules that I don't think need to be there.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[GJD]

I don't know about 'im, but I might well do that. Between coming off the throttle and beginning to accelerate again, I allow myself whatever periods of braking and however many gearchanges I feel appropriate.

I'm sure you do . I'm interested in what might lead you (or Astraist if he's of the same view as you) to feel that more than one period of braking or more than one gear change might be appropriate. When you make a gear change, and then before accelerating you make another gear change, what would you say you're using the first gear you changed into for?

[Horse]

The "some other declutching option" could be ... declutching . Nothing's stopping you leaving the gear change until you have finished braking is it?

Apart from coasting being frowned upon?

It's not coasting. You're controlling the vehicle with the brake.

Ah, so if I'm using the brake to control the car, it's OK to let go of the steering wheel?

To clarify further: in 'normal' driving in my car I don't do 'full' B-G separation*, instead will be dipping the clutch as my right foot is easing off the brake, so that setting the revs co-incides with re-engaging the clutch.

* I think someone recently explained that you *should* be able to touch your right foot to the floor or throttle after braking and before declutching.

[GJD]

* I think someone recently explained that you *should* be able to touch your right foot to the floor or throttle after braking and before declutching.

Really? I don't think that's always even possible is it? Even in a car that isn't afflicted with the quirks of your works Astra...

I find moving my right foot from the brake back to the throttle before declutching for a down change can make rev matching the down change easier, as the required adjustment in revs is smaller than having to pick the revs all the way up from idle. But with a single braking phase followed by a single gear change that's not possible unless the braking phase ends at a sufficiently high speed for the car to still be happy in the original gear (the one I was in before I started braking). Sometimes that isn't the case, sometimes it is, so I'd have thought even the most die-hard proponent of the single braking phase followed by single gear change philosophy would have to be prepared to declutch before taking their foot off the brake in some instances.

[nigelc]

I find turning off the m.way doing my 70s worth in 6th gear then braking as approaching the roundabout where view is obscured by trees is the tricky one. I need to get down to 20 or less towards the end of the sliproad before I can see whether it's safe to go or need to stop. As 1000rpm is about 40mph in 6th that feels like a long time with the feet on clutch and brake.

I've tried doing an intermediate gear but oddly the single gear change does feel more natural, less flapping of left arm and more time to concentrate on the junction and traffic.

[GJD]

I've tried doing an intermediate gear but oddly the single gear change does feel more natural, less flapping of left arm and more time to concentrate on the junction and traffic.

Have you tried changing down a gear or two prior to braking? That might give you a shorter period of time at the end with feet on clutch and brake, without the need to be flapping your arms just when you want to be concentrating on other things.

[nigelc]

I've tried doing an intermediate gear but oddly the single gear change does feel more natural, less flapping of left arm and more time to concentrate on the junction and traffic.

Have you tried changing down a gear or two prior to braking? That might give you a shorter period of time at the end with feet on clutch and brake, without the need to be flapping your arms just when you want to be concentrating on other things.

I have done once or twice. A quick double de-clutch just as I get on the slip road. Sort of works and the extra engine braking helps but then we start to get back to whether we use gears or brakes to slow... hmm just didn't feel right even though the revs were matched it still felt like a redundant gear change. Might try again changing the timing of the change down and see if I find one I like

Pah - Modern cars with all these gears... knew where you were when there were only 4 to choose from

[Astraist]

My point isn't that braking should be intermittent, but that the car should be kept in a gear that would be responsive if you choose to accelerate. However, this does NOT mean that you need to go down through the gear and make aggressive downshifts at the very peak of the torque curve to create a serious retardation effect. Just enough to keep the car responsive if you it to be.

[GJD]

My point isn't that braking should be intermittent, but that the car should be kept in a gear that would be responsive if you choose to accelerate.

I would describe what I aim for as the other way around - I select an appropriately responsive gear when (but not before) I choose to accelerate.

It's the question I had in mind responding to TripleS's post earlier today - if gear C is the gear you're in when you start braking, do you sometimes change down to gear B part way through braking, then after some more braking and before accelerating, change down again to gear A? If I've not misunderstood and that is sometimes your approach, what would you say you're using gear B for? And how would you do the change from C to B without braking becoming intermittent? Sacrificing rev matching or using heel & toe would seem to be the only options.

[Horse]

* I think someone recently explained that you *should* be able to touch your right foot to the floor or throttle after braking and before declutching.

Really? I don't think that's always even possible is it? Even in a car that isn't afflicted with the quirks of your works Astra...

I didn't explain well enough. It wasn't - I think - meant to imply that you should (ie 'must') do it, just as an potetntial indicator that full separation was being achieved and that sufficient time was available.

However, NigelC's subsequent post suggests that there's nothing particularly quirky about newer TD Astras . . .

[Horse]

My point isn't that braking should be intermittent, but that the car should be kept in a gear that would be responsive if you choose to accelerate.

I would describe what I aim for as the other way around - I select an appropriately responsive gear when (but not before) I choose to accelerate.

It's the question I had in mind responding to TripleS's post earlier today - if gear C is the gear you're in when you start braking, do you sometimes change down to gear B part way through braking, then after some more braking and before accelerating, change down again to gear A? If I've not misunderstood and that is sometimes your approach, what would you say you're using gear B for? And how would you do the change from C to B without braking becoming intermittent? Sacrificing rev matching or using heel & toe would seem to be the only options.

Doesn't the timing (ie block change after braking or sequential during) depend on what you're braking for? If it's a 'fixed' situation (ie me leaving the M4 at J13 in top gear slowing to stop at red traffic lights), then brake and block. But if it's a 'developing' situation, where there's a possibility the hazard will clear and acceleration will be safe, then the sequential approach works well. Doesn't it?

[Astraist]

Exactly! Even when 'slowing to a stop at a red light' the light might change. Also, hazards might appear behind you and require acceleration. You do not even need to go down through the gear sequently, just ensure that the engine's power is there IF you need it.

[GJD]

I didn't explain well enough. It wasn't - I think - meant to imply that you should (ie 'must') do it, just as an potetntial indicator that full separation was being achieved and that sufficient time was available.

Ah - I see .

Doesn't the timing (ie block change after braking or sequential during) depend on what you're braking for? If it's a 'fixed' situation (ie me leaving the M4 at J13 in top gear slowing to stop at red traffic lights), then brake and block. But if it's a 'developing' situation, where there's a possibility the hazard will clear and acceleration will be safe, then the sequential approach works well. Doesn't it?

I'm not sure about the distinction between fixed and developing situations (or maybe I'm not sure how many situations are really fixed). I was thinking about this thread as I drove home last night. I came off the dual carriageway in top gear (5th in my car). The traffic lights at the roundabout were red. The first thing I noticed was that I perhaps don't share the discomfort nigelc described. At somewhere between 35 and 40 mph and somewhere between 1000 and 1500 rpm I declutched, happy to keep the clutch down and leave the gearstick alone for the remainder of my braking. In the event, the lights were still red when I got to them and I had to stop. But they could have changed at any time so I think by your definition this was a developing situation? My plan if the lights had changed was to select an appropriate gear and proceed with my journey. Depending what speed I'd got down to before a) the lights had changed and b) I could see it was clear to proceed, I think that gear would have been 1st, 2nd or possibly 3rd. I would have been comfortable going to any of those gears in a single change, once I knew which one I wanted.

Through one of three approaches - interrupting braking, not bothering about rev matching, or attempting heel and toe - (the first two of which I prefer not to do), I could have made some intermediate gear changes, but I don't know what I would have been doing it for (hence my question to TripleS and Astraist).

I guess if there had been a queue at the lights (there was only one car ahead) and it was obvious I was definitely going to have to stop in the queue even if the lights changed, that would have been a fixed situation.

[nigelc]

I get the idea about developing and fixed situation. Leaving the motorway approaching the roundabout is a case of "looking to go, planning to stop". De-clutching at 40mph ready to complete the stop or select 2nd or even a rolling 1st should the need arise just seems to take a long time although this morning I tried counting the length of time the clutch was disengaged before selecting 2nd and pulling away. I wasn't braking hard and may have been counting slowly but it only amounted to 3 seconds (ish) probably would have been 4 and bit if I needed to stop. It just feels like a long time.

PS I'm not driving an Astra (Alfa for me) so can't comment on that problem. Most cars are happy down to 1000rpm, my car lets me know if I drop much below 1000rpm by making an uncomfortable jerky feel as the engine management tries to keep the engine at or above tickover and fights the brakes if I de-clutch late.

[TripleS]

I don't know about 'im, but I might well do that. Between coming off the throttle and beginning to accelerate again, I allow myself whatever periods of braking and however many gearchanges I feel appropriate.

I'm sure you do . I'm interested in what might lead you (or Astraist if he's of the same view as you) to feel that more than one period of braking or more than one gear change might be appropriate. When you make a gear change, and then before accelerating you make another gear change, what would you say you're using the first gear you changed into for?

Apologies for the delay in answering.

I know that my style conflicts with the nice clean and clinical "System" advocated by the purists, but I just don't feel that I need pressurise myself to conform to that. Many drivers may feel helped by that systematic approach, but I don't.

As we approach hazards they don't always remain fixed, they sometimes change as to their nature and severity. When that happens it may not be appropriate to merely brake once to get the speed right, then make only one gearchange to suit that speed.

My preference has long been to develop a driving style that incorporates the use of a range of simple actions that can be deployed flexibly to suit the particular situation. It seems to me that too much insistence that we should always try to apply The System tends to discourage versatility and overall capability, and indeed may even tend to make us less thoughtful about our driving; and that surely can't be good.

Best wishes all,
Dave.