Advanced Driving in automatic

[waremark]

I fully agree with all the general advice given here in relation to autos. I used my DCT BMW for my last retest and used drive in town and when following traffic, sequential (ie manual) at other times. Examiner happy.

I have driven 2 Stronic Audis. In both I felt that left to It's own devices the gearbox selects uncomfortably high gears at low speeds (in other ways those gearboxes are superb, responsive and smooth). On the other hand if put into sport mode auto it goes to the opposite extreme and holds onto low gears longer than seems appropriate for gentle driving. The consequence is that with those specific boxes I use manual more often than in most other autos. If I was taking a test in one of those cars I would demonstrate to the examiner the reason for my choice of method.

Incidentally, in those cars if you use a paddle to change down without also selecting manual they revert to auto after a short time. If I have chosen to intervene manually I generally prefer also to choose the moment for going back to auto, so I move the gear lever to manual.

[waremark]

Some paddle shift cars make the smoothest down changes under brakes. This applies to most Mercs I have driven. Others including my M3 in my preferred settings make smoother down changes when the throttle is open, and therefore in my opinion respond better to making the down change after coming off the brakes. PDK and STronic boxes both seem so good that the smoothness of the change is never a factor.

You chaps who have been trying a PDK, out of interest what car was it in?

With reference to holding the left paddle in a Merc and letting the auto choose the lowest available gear, I never do that because it sometimes goes to a lower gear than I would choose with very little headroom for accelerating. Also, in a car with generous torque I generally change up before max revs. An exception was diesel Range Rovers I have driven, where in 'manual mode' the boxes changed up at only 4k revs which worked quite nicely.

Sorry to have gone quite so far beyond the OP's question. I hope someone finds my comments of interest.

[jont]

You chaps who have been trying a PDK, out of interest what car was it in?

A white one
/PM sent

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Stephen, if I could presume further, could you describe what you mean by "demonstrating all the modes" of the auto box. You are quite correct that groups (mine certainly doesn't) don't tend to have an auto specialist tutor. I'm not aware that we get much guidance either as to what to teach associates. Roadcraft distils its advice into 2 phrases "Read the manufacturers instructions" and "know the type of gearbox fitted and how to use it". Could you give some pointers?

For a traditional full auto with no manual selection other than holding in a lower gear. Examples I can think of are:

* Dropping a gear for acceleration during an overtake
* Demonstrating forced change-down (induction triggered) and kick-down (electrically triggered)
* Holding the car in a lower gear for steep descents

For a Tiptronic / SMG auto:

* Using full auto whilst demonstrating the ability to trigger gear changes with the throttle
* Using sequential mode to drive more like a manual car following some of the pointers above

What have I missed?

Thanks

[Stephen]

Cholmondley-Warner,
What you say is about right,however there is far more skill in driving a manual than most people think,it is not just a case of selct D and leave it from start to finish,although there are some groups/observers out there who think that this is the case.

Automatics have come a long way over the years and are so sophisticated that they can make you a worst driver when you are trying to play with it than if you just leave it in automatic mode.

Now,on test I would not be expecting you to be in manual/sports mode all the time,as if thats the case then why buy a automatic if you are going to drive it like a manual all the time,I will be expecting you to override the auto box at least twice during the drive,once in a built up area and once in a NSL road.

Most auto boxes these days have a manual or sports mode,and when you have one of these modes selected,more often than not when negotiating a turn you can just let the gearbox select the gear required to match the speed on the way down,as this is where most people get caught out.

I have associates when using the gearbox in override mode try and beat the car in selecting the gear,which results in a lower gear than necessary being selected which catches them out ie when 2nd is sufficient and the car has already selected it they then select a gear thinking it's second and it's 1st etc etc.

As is when entering a NSL road from lets say a 30mph limit,in a manual car you (hopefully) select 3rd gear in preperation for the change in speed,this would also be an ideal time to override the autobox,setting yourself up to demonstrate manual changes,but no,we enter national speed limits in drive,they then either slowly try and build up or after a bit override it,and within seconds have selected D again.

you can always spot someone with an auto box who knows what they are doing again just by how they show confidence in selecting gears which may i say are nearly always done within the system,to sit here and try and explain everything for me its hard,the best way to do it is out on the road where once shown properly with practise you can get it right as if you were driving a manual car.

The best one for me was sometime ago I had a test candidate in an automatic,and during my debrief we discussed using the autobox,I was assured he knew his vehicle and what it was capable of,out we went and half way through he went for an overtake,he overrode the box and he selected 2nd instead of third,now as you would guess the information was there ie high revs,then he floored it,now half way through the car was red lining and it changed up due to its built in safety feature,he said that wasnt me I never touched it,which said he doesnt know his vehicle's capabilitys.

It seems that both IAM/ROSPA's advice on autos are the same and all they ask is that you demonstrate a good working knowledge of the box in the appropriate way according to the system of car control,there is nothing hard about it if your observer has the knowledge if not then it can be difficult for an automatic associate,my biggest criticism on test with auto boxes is planning and Hazard Management,with Observations as you know they all compliment each other. Hope I have not bored you too much,if in doubt ask get it from the horses mouth so to speak.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

RoSPA's own advice on the subject can be found here:

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/driving/automatic-gearboxes.aspx

Thanks Mark. I'm not sure of the exact relevance of that article, as it's in the general RoSPA site rather than the dedicated RoADAR one, but it's useful nonetheless. It refers to an Examiner, but doesn't make it clear what test it refers to. I suspect it's aimed at the fleet section, although no doubt the advice is similar. Unfortunately, like Stephen's advice above, it focusses mainly on negatives - "Many drivers of automatics leave the gear selector in D and never consider other options... " etc. rather than on positive advice, although there is a good amount of useful advice there particularly towards the end.

[Gumby]

From my experience of driving with 7 speed DSG gearbox, there is no problem at all with advanced driving and auto 'boxes. As long as you know how to 'work' it properly and fully exploit all it can offer, in my opinion you can drive just as flexible and in an exam style as a manual gearbox.

There are normally 3 different circumstances when I use the differnet modes of the gear box:
1. Full auto- driving around town, dual carriageways etc. when it will move up to 7th gear for economy. If you need a bit of push for over taking, then kick down will drop it down to 6th or 5th
2. Sport mode- when you want to use all the available power all of the time and have it keep the revs high (and to keep the super/turbo chargers spinning nicely) such as on twisty B roads. It will also drop each gear in order when you slow down/brake for extra braking force and for when you to get back on the power afterwards.
3. Tempory Manual mode with paddle shifters- when your in full auto and want to drop to a lower gear than kick down would do e.g. from 6th to 4th (overtaking, NSL with long straight afterwards). It will then hold that gear for 15 seconds then return back to auto, unless you change again, or you force it back into auto by moving the selector leaver into sport or full manual then back again.

These options are more than enough as they offer a very flexible way to drive.

There's also the fact you don't have to take you hands off the wheel to change gear

[TripleS]

From my experience of driving with 7 speed DSG gearbox, there is no problem at all with advanced driving and auto 'boxes. As long as you know how to 'work' it properly and fully exploit all it can offer, in my opinion you can drive just as flexible and in an exam style as a manual gearbox.

There are normally 3 different circumstances when I use the differnet modes of the gear box:
1. Full auto- driving around town, dual carriageways etc. when it will move up to 7th gear for economy. If you need a bit of push for over taking, then kick down will drop it down to 6th or 5th
2. Sport mode- when you want to use all the available power all of the time and have it keep the revs high (and to keep the super/turbo chargers spinning nicely) such as on twisty B roads. It will also drop each gear in order when you slow down/brake for extra braking force and for when you to get back on the power afterwards.
3. Tempory Manual mode with paddle shifters- when your in full auto and want to drop to a lower gear than kick down would do e.g. from 6th to 4th (overtaking, NSL with long straight afterwards). It will then hold that gear for 15 seconds then return back to auto, unless you change again, or you force it back into auto by moving the selector leaver into sport or full manual then back again.

These options are more than enough as they offer a very flexible way to drive.

There's also the fact you don't have to take you hands off the wheel to change gear

Yes, I can see that, but is it really a problem having to take a hand off the steering wheel to perform a gearchange? After all, the vast majority of my driving has involved the use of manual gearboxes, and apart from the initial difficulty of steering a decent course while making gearchanges on my first couple of driving lessons, it has never seemed to be a problem. Do you suppose we sometimes exaggerate the importance of having two hands on the steering wheel?

It's now almost 17 years since I owned a car with automatic transmission, and I have no experience of modern automatics, but they now sound to be very capable indeed, to the extent that I don't see why one would wish to interfere with the fully automatic mode. Is there really much to be gained by over-riding it? I dunno, maybe it's just something else to play with: is that it?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Stephen]

Dave,
If the fully automatic mode did everything for you when it should be done,then why would manufacturers fit other functions on it if they were not required,theyre their for a reason and the reason is that in fully automatic it wont do what you want it to do in certain scenario's.

You mention steering there is an acceptable level of one on one driving if you follow Roadcraft then you should be changing gear either before or after the hazard,however i do accept that sometimes people dont plan correctly and mess things up and sometimes you have to change gear and steer,if you do there has to be minimum steering input for this otherwise it could compromise the vehicle's safety and stability.

[GJD]

Yes, I can see that, but is it really a problem having to take a hand off the steering wheel to perform a gearchange? After all, the vast majority of my driving has involved the use of manual gearboxes, and apart from the initial difficulty of steering a decent course while making gearchanges on my first couple of driving lessons, it has never seemed to be a problem. Do you suppose we sometimes exaggerate the importance of having two hands on the steering wheel?

We may well do. As with much in the AD world, I think it's possible to focus on the rule rather than the purpose or benefit it's trying to achieve - or at least to come across that way.

I find there are occasions when I'm driving when I would feel uncomfortable having only one hand on the wheel. When I'm driving a manual, I try and avoid those occasions coinciding with when I want to change gear.

It's now almost 17 years since I owned a car with automatic transmission, and I have no experience of modern automatics, but they now sound to be very capable indeed, to the extent that I don't see why one would wish to interfere with the fully automatic mode. Is there really much to be gained by over-riding it? I dunno, maybe it's just something else to play with: is that it?

It certainly can be something to play with, and of course there's no harm in that if you want to and you recognise that's what you're doing. I think Gareth summed up what there is to be gained by over-riding the automatic gearbox rather well earlier in the thread:

... an auto-box is always reactive and the IAM is in the business of training drivers to be proactive, using observation to select the appropriate gear before it is needed.

If you familiarise yourself with what your automatic gearbox does in fully automatic mode, you'll identify any situations where its reactive behaviour doesn't suit what you want and you might benefit from manually overriding it.

[TripleS]

Well I thank Stephen and GJD for their comments, but all I can say is that I never found the earlier automatics - such as those on Jaguar XJ6/XJ12 Series 3 cars of the 1980s - to be unsatisfactory. On those models IIRC the transmission selector was marked P R N D 2 1, which meant that I could prevent the transmission from changing up beyond 1st or 2nd gear, but I only made use of that facility on rare occasions. Sticking it in D and letting it get on with it seemed to work quite nicely most of the time as far as I was concerned.

As I became accustomed to how those transmissioned behaved, one thing I did make use of at times was the ability to provoke a downchange by applying a quick squirt of extra throttle. This was not the 'kick-down' feature (which required a throttle pedal travel beyond the normal full throttle position) but merely a sudden increase in throttle opening at a suitable point before entering a bend, especially an uphill bend. Apart from manually selecting 2 or 1, this was the only way in which I made any conscious effort to tell the transmission what I wanted it to do.

No doubt automatics of that era must sound terribly primitive to those of you who now use the more recent and sophisticated systems, but as I say, I was happy with what I had at the time, and it never felt inadequate; we got along perfectly well.

I suppose my feeling is that while I can understand some people wanting to have the latest and most versatile systems, and be able to play with them in various ways, I really can't see that any major benefits are going to emerge in terms of safety and security, and indeed progress, as perceived by a normal passenger.

[provocative mode, phase 2]....and as far as steering is concerned, if experienced and supposedly fully competent drivers can't safely cope with a gearchange while negotiating a large roundabout (for example) do you not feel there's something a bit lacking in the skill set?[/provocative mode, phase 2]

Sorry guys, honestly, but with all due respect I think some of these advanced driving dictats - for want of a better term - are a bit too rigid, and unnecessary. They still seem too prescriptive for my taste, and I truly can not see a practical basis to justify some of it - apart from whatever personal satisfaction accrues to the AD enthusiast, and the occasional wish to impress somebody in order to pass an AD test.

I guess you'd better just ignore me, and I might go away. Actually, were it not for this abysmal 'summer', I'd be out gardening most of the time, instead of making myself a pest here.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

Dave asked 'Yes, I can see that, but is it really a problem having to take a hand off the steering wheel to perform a gearchange?'

Paddles or not, I generally prefer not to have the gear change while cornering. Under braking, I feel entirely comfortable and safe taking a hand off the wheel briefly to change gear. Therefore the presence or absence of paddles does not influence the amount I manually override the gearbox. Do paddles improve safety? If so, it is fractional, but the faster the car the more they are appreciated.

Dave, modern gearboxes may be good, but they generally only know what has happened, not what is going to happen. This is a major reason why I manually override. For example, I far prefer the car to be in a suitable gear before I accelerate, rather than to have it kick down only when the acceleration becomes firmer, either out of a bend or to overtake. I am more likely to leave the gearbox to its own devices when I do not expect to want any firm acceleration.

The same arguments apply even in Sport modes. I hardly ever use Sport modes.

And having said all that, I have made a point of completing a journey entirely in D. It can work perfectly well.

[Gumby]

From my experience of driving with 7 speed DSG gearbox, there is no problem at all with advanced driving and auto 'boxes. As long as you know how to 'work' it properly and fully exploit all it can offer, in my opinion you can drive just as flexible and in an exam style as a manual gearbox.

There are normally 3 different circumstances when I use the differnet modes of the gear box:
1. Full auto- driving around town, dual carriageways etc. when it will move up to 7th gear for economy. If you need a bit of push for over taking, then kick down will drop it down to 6th or 5th
2. Sport mode- when you want to use all the available power all of the time and have it keep the revs high (and to keep the super/turbo chargers spinning nicely) such as on twisty B roads. It will also drop each gear in order when you slow down/brake for extra braking force and for when you to get back on the power afterwards.
3. Tempory Manual mode with paddle shifters- when your in full auto and want to drop to a lower gear than kick down would do e.g. from 6th to 4th (overtaking, NSL with long straight afterwards). It will then hold that gear for 15 seconds then return back to auto, unless you change again, or you force it back into auto by moving the selector leaver into sport or full manual then back again.

These options are more than enough as they offer a very flexible way to drive.

There's also the fact you don't have to take you hands off the wheel to change gear

Yes, I can see that, but is it really a problem having to take a hand off the steering wheel to perform a gearchange? After all, the vast majority of my driving has involved the use of manual gearboxes, and apart from the initial difficulty of steering a decent course while making gearchanges on my first couple of driving lessons, it has never seemed to be a problem. Do you suppose we sometimes exaggerate the importance of having two hands on the steering wheel?

It's now almost 17 years since I owned a car with automatic transmission, and I have no experience of modern automatics, but they now sound to be very capable indeed, to the extent that I don't see why one would wish to interfere with the fully automatic mode. Is there really much to be gained by over-riding it? I dunno, maybe it's just something else to play with: is that it?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Sorry, wasn't trying to say it's a problem, it's just better in some situations. For example, a lot of cars have a very short 1st gear. If you need to nip into a gap in traffic at a roundabout and are taking a very sharp left hand exit, an auto gear box allows you to make smooth and fast progress into the exit whilst keeping both hands on the wheel. Otherwise you have to take one hand off, change gear and turn at the same time. The risk of either steering too much or too little is severley reduced or having to use one hand to turn the wheel all the way round.
There also then isn't the moment when you have to slow down to work the clutch and change gear when what you really need to be doing is getting on the power as quick as possible.

Prime example being here: http://binged.it/LloEpF

Lane 1 from Westfield Road, turning left into Lane 1 on Bourges Boulevard. This corner is extreamly tight and the traffic at this roundabout is fast.

I'm not saying manual gear boxes are bad, I just think that DSG technology can be better and can aid safety.

[fungus]

Otherwise you have to take one hand off, change gear and turn at the same time.

The technique is to change gear whilst the steering is set, not whilst actually turning the steering wheel. As this is done at low speed there is relatively little affect on the stability of the car.

[TripleS]

Otherwise you have to take one hand off, change gear and turn at the same time.

The technique is to change gear whilst the steering is set, not whilst actually turning the steering wheel. As this is done at low speed there is relatively little affect on the stability of the car.

Ah yes, the recommended technique......being useful guidance for those who have yet to learn what can be relied upon to give a safe and satisfactory result, and what can not.

Having said that, I still reckon that an experienced and thoughtful driver, and one with a reasonable skill set, should not be expected to follow that guidance at all times.

For example, at a medium sized roundabout well known to me, (junction of A169 and A171), I normally approach on the A169 and take the third exit, which is about 270 degrees round. If the RB is clear of other traffic I'll complete the approach in 3rd gear and keep my left hand on the gear lever. On entry to the RB my right hand will start at about 10, move briefly to 8, then go round to 5 and finally end up at 3......which is just right for the straight section of road after the roundabout.

If there is other traffic interfering with my free entry to the RB, I'll aim to enter at low speed in 2nd gear, and very likely change to 3rd gear part way round: this may or may not be done while the steering is 'set'......but I can't see that the ability to change gear at the same time as altering the steering angle should be beyond our capability. Treating a roundabout in this way at any normal sensible speed, on a road that is dry or wet, does not present any problem as far as I'm concerned, so long as the control inputs are smooth and not upsetting the car unduly. Should the road surface be affected by snow or ice, that would be a different situation altogether, and what I've described above would not be appropriate. It's all about having reasonable regard to the conditions, innit.

Best wishes all,
Dave.