Advanced Driving in automatic

[Andy Mundo]

Hi all - first post...

Am currently working towards my Advanced Driving 'Challenge' and have an Audi with the S Tronic (DSG) gearbox. As this can be either fully automatic or can be manually shifted does anyone have any experience as to whether I'll be expected to drive my test in auto or manual (or demonstrate both)?

Perhaps it might be worth asking how the examiner would like me to drive...?

Hmmm, not sure, so any comments would be welcome.

Cheers

[Gareth]

Welcome Andy.

While I'm not able to answer your question -- best to wait for an examiner to answer -- there are a couple of threads that may give you some ideas, first about remaining connected while driving an auto, and second about using the modes of an auto box.

FWIW my suggestion would be to use fully automatic mode mostly in built up areas and boring rural roads, changing to manual over-ride for interesting rural roads. In addition I would use manual mode for steep descents and also in slippery conditions.

[ROG]

WELCOME

The examiner will expect options on the autobox to be used if necessary for the situation presented

Sticking it in D and forget it when a better selection is available is not acceptable

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I'm interested in this from a System of Car Control point of view. Last weekend I had the opportunity to drive a car with a very sophisticated DSG (actually called PDK) box, which could either do absolutely everything for you, or be controlled manually. Because of its sophistication, it was possible to do down changes at practically any time. Even in full manual mode, the box would match the engine revs for you (although you could help it a little if you felt so inclined). In fact it performed this task better under braking than under a trailing throttle with no brakes. This meant you could (and were somewhat encouraged to) overlap braking and gear changes (sometimes many down changes) to an extent that basically threw the System out of the window. Approaching a tight bend from a long straight, you could choose your method of approach from any of the following:

1. Brake to the appropriate entry speed before the corner, change down the requisite number of times (the car had 7 speeds, but rarely needed less than 3rd for even the tightest of corners), then reapply throttle as required to drive the corner.
2. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, while overlapping the gear changes, then accelerate wherever you felt appropriate (either trail braking into the corner or losing the speed beforehand), a bit like heel and toe in a manual car
3. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, wait for the transition from brakes to throttle, change down and apply the throttle out of the corner (not very nice even in that car, but perfectly possible).

Of these methods, the middle one felt the most natural. Because the gearbox was so clever, there was no loss of smoothness, in fact it was smoother than changing down off the brakes, and it was certainly the best method for making progress.

The whole experience was a little surreal, a bit like driving a PlayStation, but that's not the point of this post.

How would an examiner view the situation? Would they expect method 1 to be used exclusively, or would they view method 2 sympathetically, given that the technology performed best with that method?

[slicknic]

Hi Nick,

My crusty old Peugeot estate has a tiptronic auto which actually sounds similar in operation. The box in my car is actually made by Porsche too, never the less it is installed in a Peugeot powered by fuel from the black pump

In manual mode the box is simply not quick enough to shift several gears at once on approach to a corner. For example if on an NSL road travelling in 5th gear with a bend ahead that would need 3rd gear I would have to change down during the braking phase to get the required 2 changes in. Also in my car if you stay off the gas pedal during down changes the engine does blip to match engine speed to road speed.

If I braked then tried the gear change as per the system it would let me do the 5th to 4th change and then the change down to 3rd about half a mile (15 seconds) later (exaggeration), by which time you may not be in the correct gear for the hazard.

The obvious disadvantage here is that under firm braking you have to take your hand from the wheel to change down as my car has no flappy paddles.

Your option 2 is closest to what I would use. I have done a test recently and the examiner was ok with my manual use of the gearbox.

Cheers
Nick

[jcochrane]

I'm interested in this from a System of Car Control point of view. Last weekend I had the opportunity to drive a car with a very sophisticated DSG (actually called PDK) box, which could either do absolutely everything for you, or be controlled manually. Because of its sophistication, it was possible to do down changes at practically any time. Even in full manual mode, the box would match the engine revs for you (although you could help it a little if you felt so inclined). In fact it performed this task better under braking than under a trailing throttle with no brakes. This meant you could (and were somewhat encouraged to) overlap braking and gear changes (sometimes many down changes) to an extent that basically threw the System out of the window. Approaching a tight bend from a long straight, you could choose your method of approach from any of the following:

1. Brake to the appropriate entry speed before the corner, change down the requisite number of times (the car had 7 speeds, but rarely needed less than 3rd for even the tightest of corners), then reapply throttle as required to drive the corner.
2. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, while overlapping the gear changes, then accelerate wherever you felt appropriate (either trail braking into the corner or losing the speed beforehand), a bit like heel and toe in a manual car
3. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, wait for the transition from brakes to throttle, change down and apply the throttle out of the corner (not very nice even in that car, but perfectly possible).

Of these methods, the middle one felt the most natural. Because the gearbox was so clever, there was no loss of smoothness, in fact it was smoother than changing down off the brakes, and it was certainly the best method for making progress.

The whole experience was a little surreal, a bit like driving a PlayStation, but that's not the point of this post.

How would an examiner view the situation? Would they expect method 1 to be used exclusively, or would they view method 2 sympathetically, given that the technology performed best with that method?

Nick, I came to the same conclusion as you that after some experimentation option 2 seemed to work best. If you get the chance to drive Simon's (ex chairman) car it has a paddle shift where if you pull and hold the left paddle it will drop into the lowest gear it can. When reaching maximum rpm it automatically changes up. So on the approach to a bend all you need to do is brake, pull and hold left hand paddle, accelerate round and out of the bend and let the up changes happen at max. rpm. Makes it dead easy to drive.

[DJL]

It was my habit to use the box manually, except in town traffic. My examiners commented favourably.

This is what I did for my IAM test, and am doing for my SA.

I was told that at a minimum, I had to use each mode of the box enough to demonstrate that I could do so competently and thereby take advantage of the car's full capabilities.

Personally, for day to day driving, I tend to use semi-auto 90% of the time. I find this gives me more control because I'm able to plan for the road ahead, whereas the TCU just reacts. On the other hand, there are times when it's nice stick it in D and have one less thing to think about.

[Stephen]

My opinion on this from an Examiners point of view is that if you have an automatic gearbox on your vehicle and you are being tested,then you should be able to demonstrate that you have a thourough knowledge of your particular gearbox,and that you can override it in the appropriate places.

I have had people come on test that have not moved out of D throughout the whole test,and the reason they give for this is simple they have been told by their Observer/Group that it is acceptable to leave it in D for me this does not demonstrate that you can use the gearbox sufficiently.

It says in the Advanced Driving book,and Roadcraft that you have to demonstrate this,it is also in the Examiners manual,there are in my area certain people in the groups that feel that you don't have to demonstrate manual override as long as you can explain how your gearbox works,im afraid this in my opinion is not good enough,as we all know that their are some people who can talk a good job,but can't really practise it.

I would even go as faar to say that there are some groups that do not have anyone who specialises in auto box demonstration/tuition let alone have a member with a autobox car,I wont have people tell me whats the point of buying an autobox if you are going to drive it manually,your test lasts for about 90minutes and if you never override the gearbox ever again after test then who cares.

You have to demonstrate a thourough knowledge of the use on test then thats what should be done,there are opinions but let's stick to what is expected on test and demonstrating that you are a good all round basic advanced driver,if you want to be sure what you have to do on test,then ask your Examiner when he contacts you to arrange your test. Any problems or questions then shout between us I am sure we will put you right,hopefully.

[jcochrane]

A very useful post. I sometimes have a hard time in persuading some Associates of the value of using manual. At a recent social meeting an IAM member insisted I was wrong to use manual as the automatic always knew what the correct gear should be.

[Gareth]

an IAM member insisted I was wrong to use manual as the automatic always knew what the correct gear should be.

I hope you pointed out that (currently) an auto-box is always reactive and the IAM is in the business of training drivers to be proactive, using observation to select the appropriate gear before it is needed.

[Andy Mundo]

All

That's great. Thank you all for your thoughts, comments and speedy response.

What's clear to me now (and don't forget, I'm a newbe) is that I need to demonstrate that I'm in control, not the car regardless of it's fancy gizmos. So, I'll use the auto function when I deem necessary and the manual overide when I feel necessary. I'll put this opinion to the examiner when I meet him/her for clarification before the test.

My more immediate problem is that some low-life has decided to reverse into the side of my car today and drive off!

[crr003]

What's clear to me now (and don't forget, I'm a newbe) is that I need to demonstrate that I'm in control, not the car regardless of it's fancy gizmos. So, I'll use the auto function when I deem necessary and the manual overide when I feel necessary. I'll put this opinion to the examiner when I meet him/her for clarification before the test.

What's your Observer say on the subject?

(Sorry to hear about your car )

[Andy Mundo]

What's your Observer say on the subject?

(Sorry to hear about your car )[/quote]

He "isn't sure"...pointed me in the direction of the meet the examiner evening - which is fair enough.

[GJD]

What's clear to me now (and don't forget, I'm a newbe) is that I need to demonstrate that I'm in control, not the car regardless of it's fancy gizmos. So, I'll use the auto function when I deem necessary and the manual overide when I feel necessary.

I think you've summed it up very well there.

[stefan einz]

I'm interested in this from a System of Car Control point of view. Last weekend I had the opportunity to drive a car with a very sophisticated DSG (actually called PDK) box, which could either do absolutely everything for you, or be controlled manually. Because of its sophistication, it was possible to do down changes at practically any time. Even in full manual mode, the box would match the engine revs for you (although you could help it a little if you felt so inclined). In fact it performed this task better under braking than under a trailing throttle with no brakes. This meant you could (and were somewhat encouraged to) overlap braking and gear changes (sometimes many down changes) to an extent that basically threw the System out of the window. Approaching a tight bend from a long straight, you could choose your method of approach from any of the following:

1. Brake to the appropriate entry speed before the corner, change down the requisite number of times (the car had 7 speeds, but rarely needed less than 3rd for even the tightest of corners), then reapply throttle as required to drive the corner.
2. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, while overlapping the gear changes, then accelerate wherever you felt appropriate (either trail braking into the corner or losing the speed beforehand), a bit like heel and toe in a manual car
3. Brake to the appropriate speed for the corner, wait for the transition from brakes to throttle, change down and apply the throttle out of the corner (not very nice even in that car, but perfectly possible).

Of these methods, the middle one felt the most natural. Because the gearbox was so clever, there was no loss of smoothness, in fact it was smoother than changing down off the brakes, and it was certainly the best method for making progress.

The whole experience was a little surreal, a bit like driving a PlayStation, but that's not the point of this post.

How would an examiner view the situation? Would they expect method 1 to be used exclusively, or would they view method 2 sympathetically, given that the technology performed best with that method?

Nick

Re the system of car control point, I don't actually think applying option 2 (usually the best choice as you say) is "throwing the system out of the window". In fully automatic, most boxes will change down whilst you are on the brakes.

The issue is more to do with where your hands are during the braking phase; in a paddle shift car they stay on the wheel so there is no risk of a loss of control. All of these double clutch (and even single clutch) systems match revs on downshifts, so avoiding the potential issue of over powering the grip of the driven wheels with braking and engine torque.

When driving a paddle shift car in manual, and approaching a bend, I like to make the gearchange(s) roughly mid way through the braking phase, just so that I can focus on coming off the brakes smoothly without worrying about further gearchanges needed.

Cheers