ADUK Archive

Probably not is the quick answer but...

...on a narrowish road with queued traffic opposite direction, I find cyclists and motorcyclists sometimes filter across the centre-line assuming I am going to tuck in left. This morning several times in the same road I felt myself being 'pushed' over to the nearside and even then the gap was too tight to be safe for them and me without slowing considerably.

Half of me says - that's only fair to allow them to make progress but the other half (schizophrenia?) gets a little annoyed and I'm tempted to maintain my position to 'encourage' them not to.

Thoughts?

they are placing a huge assumption on your part - that you've seen them and will yield

and in that, they are braver than me! I regularly overtake in this way (as a cyclist obviously), but never over the centre line if there is close opposing traffic...

so yes I can understand how you feel

As a cyclist, I filter like this occasionally - of course, if you are going to make progress, it must be this way rather than passing on the left. I never assume that the driver has seen me, and certainly not that they are going to move in to accommodate me. This is not borne of any advanced technique; it is just very unlikely that it will happen.

I am always grateful to those who do move, and show my thanks; however the manoeuvre is committed to on the presumption that no such accommodation will be made. I imagine that most of my two wheeled companions would agree. Thus I feel that the assumption in the OP is on your part, not the other road user.

In answer to your question, if you can safely improve the lot of the overtaking (motor)cyclist, then please do so. Obviously safely includes looking for cyclists passing on the left. However there is no obligation for you to do so, and we will get past safely without it.

I would also comment that if you don't ride, you are perhaps less aware of where a bike can safely fit into, which in turn facilitates overtaking manoeuvres that a driver would think unsafe.

I do pass queueing traffic when I'm cycling, but if there are (or are likely to be) opposing vehicles, I make sure I've got somewhere to land before I take off, just as I would with any overtake. I'm not sure I'd be annoyed in your position, but I would be concerned for the safety of the solos!

David

trashbat wrote:I am always grateful to those who do move, and show my thanks; however the manoeuvre is committed to on the presumption that no such accommodation will be made. I imagine that most of my two wheeled companions would agree. Thus I feel that the assumption in the OP is on your part, not the other road user.

They are assuming because they commit to going off-side without a safe landing spot. Sometimes when we meet there is a gap that I am uncomfortable with even if I do yield to the nearside and certainly at my original speed (<30!).

trashbat wrote:...However there is no obligation for you to do so, and we will get past safely without it.

Just to be clear I'm talking about cyclists coming towards me going off-side to overtake queued traffic. The cyclists and motorcyclists I met this morning were not passing safely in my opinion.[/quote]

martine wrote:Just to be clear I'm talking about cyclists coming towards me going off-side to overtake queued traffic. The cyclists and motorcyclists I met this morning were not passing safely in my opinion.

I hadn't picked up on that - I assumed you were being overtaken. However, exactly the same applies as far as my decision making goes. Then again if traffic was moving at any significant speed (10mph+?) I would try and be out of the way by the time we met.

kfae8959 wrote:...I make sure I've got somewhere to land before I take off, just as I would with any overtake. I'm not sure I'd be annoyed in your position, but I would be concerned for the safety of the solos!

I'm sure you do it safely.

What slightly annoys me is the assumption I will slow and/or move to the nearside and even then I don't think it was safe to pass.

I suppose my question is: Should I move to the nearside and thereby encourage them to pass unsafely (IMO)?

martine wrote:I suppose my question is: Should I move to the nearside and thereby encourage them to pass unsafely (IMO)?

Whose safety do you think is being compromised - yours or theirs? If it's yours, then I think it's reasonable to consider positioning your vehicle to increase your safety - i.e. to discourage them from overtaking - as long as you leave yourself somewhere to go when they show no sign of being discouraged - just the conventional bold positioning for oncoming vehicles idea really. If it's their safety then I think that has to be their lookout. If they're determined to risk getting squished, the only thing you can really do is make sure that whatever they end up squished against, it isn't you.

GJD wrote:Whose safety do you think is being compromised - yours or theirs?

Well both really.

I don't think there's a simple answer...except they are wrong to do it!

I think I'll go and make myself a cuppa and then have a lie down.

martine wrote:I think I'll go and make myself a cuppa and then have a lie down.

Hope you've done a risk assessment for using boiling water

GJD wrote:

martine wrote:I suppose my question is: Should I move to the nearside and thereby encourage them to pass unsafely (IMO)?

Whose safety do you think is being compromised - yours or theirs? . . . If it's their safety then I think that has to be their lookout. If they're determined to risk getting squished, the only thing you can really do is make sure that whatever they end up squished against, it isn't you.

Perhaps part of being an 'above-average' driver is actively looking out for others (safeguarding their safety rather than 'observation') without them even realising it's happening? They may 'just' see it as you helping them along.

And that 'helping' perhaps comes under the 'pro-social driving' area. After all, isn't smoothing the path of flow for other traffic another way of lowering tensions and stress on the roads - which has to be a good thing


Edit: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2562&p=48978&hilit=prosocial#p48978

I get a bit of this. If I can safely accommodate them, then I will actively do so. If I feel that I have to slow a little to safely accommodate them then I'll probably do that -- for example if I had to tuck nearside to parked cars that would drop my speed. If I was stuck in traffic then I'd certainly help as much as I can. If I have to put myself in a position of danger then sorry - can't help. If they put us both in a position of danger then I'll stop and try to make it less dangerous.

Either way - I don't think you should be annoyed -- none of the above actions seem to be any better with an annoyed driver. They are just hazards. Handle them. Move on.

martine wrote:Probably not is the quick answer but...

...on a narrowish road with queued traffic opposite direction, I find cyclists and motorcyclists sometimes filter across the centre-line assuming I am going to tuck in left. This morning several times in the same road I felt myself being 'pushed' over to the nearside and even then the gap was too tight to be safe for them and me without slowing considerably.

Half of me says - that's only fair to allow them to make progress but the other half (schizophrenia?) gets a little annoyed and I'm tempted to maintain my position to 'encourage' them not to.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure it merits getting annoyed, but I also find it somewhat irritating.

On one hand I acknowledge their wish to avoid getting held up when they could make better progress by filtering, but I wish they wouldn't be quite so pushy about it, to the extent that they 'force' you to move left for them. I think it's a bit cheeky, and they are likely to be increasing the risk to themselves. Given their higher degree of vulnerability relative to vehicle drivers, I think they're sometimes too careless regarding their own safety.

Having said that, I will of course continue to make every effort to protect their safety whatever they do, (Hello, Nick ) but a bit more restraint on their part would not come amiss.

In the event of a collision between a pushy two wheeler filtering, and an oncoming vehicle like yourself who (perish the thought) didn't see them, or saw them and refused to move left, who would be principally to blame?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Horse wrote:Perhaps part of being an 'above-average' driver is actively looking out for others (safeguarding their safety rather than 'observation') without them even realising it's happening? They may 'just' see it as you helping them along.

I think so. I was really getting at the bit where Martin said the demon on his shoulder tempted him to try and encourage them not overtake towards him. Trying to turn people from their chose path might be seen as confrontational. When I say that their safety is their lookout, I mean that "I was trying to stop you taking uncomfortable risks with your safety" is probably not a good reason to risk that confrontation (whereas "I was trying to stop you taking uncomfortable risks with my safety" might be a good reason).

The way to actively look out for their safety is, I think, what the angel on Martin's other shoulder was getting at - accepting that they've decided they're coming through and so moving over and/or slowing down to make it even safer for them than they thought they needed.

Your point about them not even realising it's happening is a good one though. Maybe there's an opportunity to position early enough and/or discreetly enough to discourage them before they even thought of overtaking.

Shock headline? 'Some road users are not trained in advanced techniques and do stupid stuff!' Some of them are (motor) cyclists (others are car drivers, lorry drivers (slightly more shocking), bus drivers (even more shocking IMO).

I think that's about it really, but as I'm feeling expansive : I frequently encounter cars on narrow country lanes who drive well away from their nearside when coming towards me, clearly don't know the width of their vehicle well enough to trust themselves within even a foot of the verge/hedge and yet do not slow - forcing me to take evasive action, sometimes stopping to avoid actually going onto the verge. I expect this, am prepared to do so when necessary and look after their lack of competence. When near cyclists and motorcyclists, I treat them as if they might fall over - not because all (or even most!) will do so, but because it is my responsibility to ensure I don't drive a couple of tons of metal over them. When on my bike, I look after myself and try not to put anyone else in the position of being worried (although some will flinch when I'm in fact in no danger whatsoever, as they can't make the judgement for me).

Edit to add: None of it is a reason to be annoyed; in fact nothing should annoy an advanced driver whilst driving - controlling the impulse to react with temper (which I'm sure you do control) is surely part of advanced driving?