Overtaking with approaching junctions

[Lady Godiva]

Just a quick question, to see what Advanced Drivers do in the following circumstance. I come across this quite frequently on long runs, and often wonder how other drivers react.

Assume you are on a long road, single carriageway, NSL, good visibility. One car in front that you wish to overtake. After moving into the overtaking position (i.e. closer than normal and over the central line) you take a good long look forward. In the distance you now see that there is a junction (lets assume that it wasn't visible before due t o road layout). For the purpose of this example you cannot see along the road forming the junction, so you don't know if another vehicle will be at the junction by the time you get there. There is nothing there yet, but who knows, and you would reach the junction before fully pulling back in (an overtake on an NSL can take longer than many drivers realsie).

As far as I can tell Roadcraft, the IAM, etc, all recommend NOT overtaking, as a vehicle MAY appear and exit the junction during the overtake. However, if you abort the overtake and pull back in, you can see the confusion on the driver in fornt (and sometimes those behind).

Out of interest, how many drivers would definitely abort the overtake, and how many would still go for it. Roadcraft and the IAM are quite clear, but what do people do in 'real life'.

Regards
Sally

[vonhosen]

Abort if there is the chance of anything pulling out to affect your purpose.

[Lady Godiva]

Abort if there is the chance of anything pulling out to affect your purpose.

Dear Vonhosen - does that include something that isn't there yet? By that I mean that you cannot see into or onto the road (there may be hedges, etc.). But, although the side turniing is hundreds of yards away, if something DID pull out it would cause a problem. Therefore should you say to yourself "although I can't see any vehicles, there is a chance that one will appear and if it did and then pulled out it would cause a problem, therefore I won't overtake".

Regards
Sally

[vonhosen]

Abort if there is the chance of anything pulling out to affect your purpose.

Dear Vonhosen - does that include something that isn't there yet? By that I mean that you cannot see into or onto the road (there may be hedges, etc.). But, although the side turniing is hundreds of yards away, if something DID pull out it would cause a problem. Therefore should you say to yourself "although I can't see any vehicles, there is a chance that one will appear and if it did and then pulled out it would cause a problem, therefore I won't overtake".

Regards
Sally

As you have no lateral vision to determine if something is in there, you have to assume that it is & it will appear.
You also have to assume it will do one of two things
a) look right (not look left) & then pull out heading towards you OR
b) pull out turning right, which will then leave you with the quandry of now having to consider a further overtake (if safe & possible) or pulling infront of the vehicle you have just overtaken & perhaps having to brake quite frimly infront of it.

If there is any doubt in your mind that you can't both safely complete the overtake & deal with any of the above without conflict with others then turn the overtake down.
If you are 100% sure you can safely do it if either of those things happen, without unduely upsetting anyone else, then it is on.

Overtakes are one of the riskiest manoeuvres on the road & require excellent judgement of relative speed & distance between many things. The earlier you start your planning for the overtake & the further ahead you are planning it the better, because it means you will have less to contemplate when it comes to the final yes or no.

If it's a "I think I can make it safely" then the overtake is NOT on.
If in doubt hold back.

[crr003]

....... But, although the side turniing is hundreds of yards away, if something DID pull out it would cause a problem.

As an aside, someone can check the sums, but I think you need 6s and about 160M to overtake a car doing 40, if you're doing 60.

If the target's doing 50 that increases to 12s and 320M.

To meet stressed_dave's criteria, that means the junction needs to be either 320 or 640M away.

To answer your question, I wouldn't bother overtaking, and I wouldn't be worried about going out for a look and coming back in again.

[rodericksdad]

I personally wouldnt consider it,seen too many people pass me in similar circumstances only to find some one has pulled out of the junction up ahead and as someone else has said they looked right first seen nothing comming from their right and carried on out into the path of the over taking vehicle,scary,
best regards,Clive.

[7db]

This gets trickier when you only see the junction when you are engaged on the overtake...or in the instance which I can think of, a rather concealed driveway. I completed the overtake and got a ticking off for it.

On reflection it is impossible to complete a safe overtake in a narrow road such as it was, as you can never be 100% sure that there's no driveway, even when you've got a good view that there's no oncoming traffic. And in any case you'll need active cooperation of the target.

It comes back to my earlier restatement of the limit point as being not the furthest that you can see to be clear, but the nearest that a surprise can come from.

[vonhosen]

This gets trickier when you only see the junction when you are engaged on the overtake...or in the instance which I can think of, a rather concealed driveway. I completed the overtake and got a ticking off for it.

On reflection it is impossible to complete a safe overtake in a narrow road such as it was, as you can never be 100% sure that there's no driveway, even when you've got a good view that there's no oncoming traffic. And in any case you'll need active cooperation of the target.

It comes back to my earlier restatement of the limit point as being not the furthest that you can see to be clear, but the nearest that a surprise can come from.

Yes, lateral vision is your friend & a must.

Buildings set back etc have entrances, lateral hedgerows may not be the edge of a field but a road.
If the hedge growth is high & close to the road show extreme caution, it is much harder to see entrances.
Look for breaks in kerb line, (if there is a kerb). Marker posts for entrances, post boxes etc.
The less you can see laterally, the more caution you must exercise.

Forgetting even about the one overtake like we are talking here, the amount of people who launch themselves on multiple overtakes, where they appear to base their decision solely on the amount of road they can presently see clear towards, forgetting completely to consider where others may enter that clear road from in the meantime.

[Porker]

As far as I can tell Roadcraft, the IAM, etc, all recommend NOT overtaking, as a vehicle MAY appear and exit the junction during the overtake. However, if you abort the overtake and pull back in, you can see the confusion on the driver in fornt (and sometimes those behind).Regards
Sally

There is also the risk of the vehicle you're overtaking turning right into your path. A further risk - if you're in the contact position - is the vehicle braking in front of you in order to take the turn. The overtake is not on in these circumstances.

regards
Nick

[7db]

Nick makes a good point.

When you read the accident statistics, there is a whole cateory for overtaking vehicles turning right. That's sobering when you are confronted with the above possibility.

db

[Roadcraft]

After moving into the overtaking position (i.e. closer than normal and over the central line) you take a good long look forward. In the distance you now see that there is a junction (lets assume that it wasn't visible before due t o road layout). For the purpose of this example you cannot see along the road forming the junction, so you don't know if another vehicle will be at the junction by the time you get there. There is nothing there yet, but who knows, and you would reach the junction before fully pulling back in (an overtake on an NSL can take longer than many drivers realsie).

Sally...

This is why proper overtaking procedures should be learned and practised....

ie: an 'overtaking position' for me in those circumstances would be in the opposite lane...looking down the road....neither gaining nor dropping back on the vehicle I intened to pass....But allowing me a proper view of the road ahead, (nearside and offside)....

and of course my wheels would be pointing in the right direction when i decided to apply power...

[TripleS]

After moving into the overtaking position (i.e. closer than normal and over the central line) you take a good long look forward. In the distance you now see that there is a junction (lets assume that it wasn't visible before due t o road layout). For the purpose of this example you cannot see along the road forming the junction, so you don't know if another vehicle will be at the junction by the time you get there. There is nothing there yet, but who knows, and you would reach the junction before fully pulling back in (an overtake on an NSL can take longer than many drivers realise).

Sally...

This is why proper overtaking procedures should be learned and practised....

ie: an 'overtaking position' for me in those circumstances would be in the opposite lane...looking down the road....neither gaining nor dropping back on the vehicle I intended to pass....But allowing me a proper view of the road ahead, (nearside and offside)....

and of course my wheels would be pointing in the right direction when I decided to apply power...

Well of course I would take that last point more seriously if I had any power to apply! <big sigh from a driver of a clapped out 406>

Never mind though, some very useful reminders have emerged above about how keep out of trouble when overtaking, though as usual there can always be some new little quirk to look out for and add to our defence mechanisms. This is what is so nice about these forums - we can help each other quite a bit without having to find everything out the hard way.

I know the recommended technique is to match speed at the contact position, go offside, have a good look and then start to accelerate positively, but I must admit I don't usually do that quite so formally. When I've seen this demonstrated it seems to take about three weeks* to have a look and decide it's on, and I just don't feel to have that time available, the chance would be gone even if it was a goer to start with.

What I often do is weigh up the situation as I close on the target vehicle, constantly updating the plan as I approach, and then if everything looks OK at decision time I go straight past without matching speed - I retain and exploit my speed advantage.

Now I know I may get criticised for this method, but I think there is a legitimate use for my flying start techinique if applied with caution, and I feel it enables me to do safe overtakes that would not otherwise be feasible.

It has been pointed out to me that one of the dangers of my flying start (or slingshot) technique is that I am closing on the target vehicle at a time when he may be going into a hazard situation - so what happens if he needs to brake suddenly? That is a very fair point, which is why I say the technique needs to be used with caution, so you need to be wary and have no large speed differential when you get close to the target vehicle. Once again it's a matter of balance, and having time and space to make adjustments in the light of what may reasonably be expected to happen.

* slight exaggeration there.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Roadcraft]

I know the recommended technique is to match speed at the contact position, go offside, have a good look and then start to accelerate positively, but I must admit I don't usually do that quite so formally. When I've seen this demonstrated it seems to take about three weeks* to have a look and decide it's on, and I just don't feel to have that time available, the chance would be gone even if it was a goer to start with.

What I often do is weigh up the situation as I close on the target vehicle, constantly updating the plan as I approach, and then if everything looks OK at decision time I go straight past without matching speed - I retain and exploit my speed advantage.

Now I know I may get criticised for this method, but I think there is a legitimate use for my flying start techinique if applied with caution, and I feel it enables me to do safe overtakes that would not otherwise be feasible.

It has been pointed out to me that one of the dangers of my flying start (or slingshot) technique is that I am closing on the target vehicle at a time when he may be going into a hazard situation - so what happens if he needs to brake suddenly? That is a very fair point, which is why I say the technique needs to be used with caution, so you need to be wary and have no large speed differential when you get close to the target vehicle. Once again it's a matter of balance, and having time and space to make adjustments in the light of what may reasonably be expected to happen.

* slight exaggeration there.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Good morning sir, thanks for that.

Yes OK, rest assured, I do the planning as early as the availability of information permits.

For the moment I'm going to take your reply as being free from serious criticism of my alternative technique.

<Thinks: "Where [b]does{/b] he get all these pictures from?">

Genuine question though: Could it be that my alternative technique works well for me because I weigh up situations pretty quickly and accurately through experience and practice?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

If it's safe to be commiting to go past, Dave, why not do it on the other side of the road?