All season and winter tyres

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[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I'm intrigued by the apparent contradiction between these two threads started by Silk. In this one he says (paraphrasing) that exploring the limits of grip is not something the average driver should be doing on the public road, and that he has never triggered ABS, etc. In another thread he's just started, he says the driver is the most important partner in the driver / car team. How, if he's never explored the envelope of his car, is he able to state with confidence that it's his skills that are responsible for keeping it shiny side up? You could just as well argue that it's not important for him to be in the driving seat because the car is apparently perfectly capable of driving itself. To me, the statements don't add up to a coherent argument.

[waremark]

I want to mention some relevant experiences.

I have tried my M3 on a car park covered with compacted snow with an extremely slight slope. I could not get it up the slope, in spite of its limited slip diff, most modern traction aids, and my fairly considerable experience at driving in adverse conditions.

To my surprise, last winter I had a very similar experience with my daughter's Fiesta - narrow tyres, front wheel drive, only a slight slope, but one front wheel just span away while the other did not turn. We had to resort to pushing (we had parked it quarter of a mile away from our home, knowing that we would not get it out from home if the weather turned out as forecast, and had only a few yards to push it onto flat then cleared roads). Incidentally, I had driven up a steep hill to where the Fiesta was parked in a suitably equipped car without any difficulty. I attibuted the poor traction of the Fiesta to tyres optimised for economy (which by the way is probably the prime driver for manufacturers not to fit all season tyres as standard).

Yesterday, I was being driven (out of a ski chalet) by a driver experienced in adverse conditions in a Toyota Land Cruiser. He descended an icy slope at about 5 mph. When he tried to stop at the bottom, the car slewed completely sideways and fortunately came to a rest before hitting anything. He said 'sorry, that was entirely my fault' and he was quite right, 2 mph would have been more suitable. I asked him what tyres the car had, and he said 'I don't know, but obviously not very good'.

Reading this thread, I have found myself entirely in sympathy with all the comments of Gareth and JC - by either of whom I would be delighted to be driven in adverse conditions.

[Octy_Ross]

I've recently been out for a few drives with a friend, before Christmas there was a bit of snowy stuff up on the hills around these parts.

We had an interesting chat about how the brakes would respond - the poor girl was convinced her ABS equipped car would spin if she try to stop with 1 side of the car on snow / slush / ice stuff and the other wheels on wet - but still adequately grippy tarmac.

We had a few runs - to begin with at very low speeds (to help her build confidence). We then built speed, doing a 40mph brake on wet tarmac, then the same with 2 wheels on icey/slushy stuff. In the 1st instance we activated the ABS and the car pulled up in a couple of fence posts (we were using that most accurate of measuring system - the distance between fence posts!!). On the next attempt we found we passed about 6-7 fence posts.

Finally I asked her to brake (with 2 wheels on slippy stuff) and steer onto the tarmac surface - we stopped somewhere in between but with no drama or fuss managed to steer the car off the split surface and found good stopping surface.

The point is, until she tried these things, she genuinely had no idea how the car was going to behave.

Note: we were trying this on some wee back road in the middle of nowhere and saw no other traffic on that road! I guess living minutes away from the Grampians has an advantage!

This was on summer tyres. The roads were mostly tarmac with a little slush at the edges here and there.

Notably after doing this and learning a little more about how the car was behaving, she didn't increase her pace...she new the cars limits were higher than she'd thought but was happy to have the increased safety margin in hand rather than push towards that limit.

[Gareth]

Ross' contribution reminded me about driving in the wet; even after I had passed the RoSPA test I was very cautious when driving on wet roads, believing that there would be hugely less grip available than in the dry.

While that may be true, I learned from some professional coaching at Millbrook and MIRA that at legal speeds the reduction in grip is much less than commonly imagined and also that smoothness increases the margin of safety. This was subsequently reinforced by more coaching at Bruntingthorpe.

At ADUK days I have met many people who had passed the IAM or RoADAR tests but were labouring under a similar miscomprehension and as a consequence were surprised that I would make better progress in wet conditions.

Of course I had the advantage of professional coaching that had given me practical demonstrations and experience of the limit of grip in wet and dry conditions, including how to recognise the onset of a lack of grip.

[jcochrane]

Very true, Gareth and the same is true for dry conditions. As you rightly point out there is great value in proffsional off road instruction. It's not so much a question of how hard can I push the car but recognising the onset of loss of grip and should a patch of deisel or something catch you out you don't panic. Your training has allowed you to calmly deal with the situation as it is not totally unfamiliar to you. Experience and understanding help in avoiding situations in the first place.

Some of us here spent a very usueful day on master class for steering and braking with some excellent coaches on an airfield in Cambidgeshire. Amongst the many things I learnt was what would it be like to suddenly have to change lane on a motorway. How does doing this whilst emergency braking feel like. This and many things were covered. I feel the day helped me to understand more deeply the art of driving. Although I hope never to have to call on these experiences I know I am better prepared if they do occur.

[Octy_Ross]

Some of us here spent a very usueful day on master class for steering and braking with some excellent coaches on an airfield in Cambridgeshire.

I did a day like that a year or 2 ago, brilliant fun watching people with no ABS (like in a TVR) having far more of a challenge than us ABS'd equipped car drivers! It was still possible to get it wrong with ABS and collect a cone or 2 but the difference it made was astonishing.

[trashbat]

Some of us here spent a very usueful day on master class for steering and braking with some excellent coaches on an airfield in Cambidgeshire. Amongst the many things I learnt was what would it be like to suddenly have to change lane on a motorway. How does doing this whilst emergency braking feel like. This and many things were covered. I feel the day helped me to understand more deeply the art of driving. Although I hope never to have to call on these experiences I know I am better prepared if they do occur.

How did this come about? Any pointers?

It's a bit off topic but I had to emergency brake recently after a truck I was about to overtake changed lanes without looking, presenting me with an alarming closing speed, and I discovered some poor behaviours like not exerting enough pedal force. I'd like to have a play with this sort of stuff in a safe environment.

[jcochrane]

Some of us here spent a very usueful day on master class for steering and braking with some excellent coaches on an airfield in Cambridgeshire.

I did a day like that a year or 2 ago, brilliant fun watching people with no ABS (like in a TVR) having far more of a challenge than us ABS'd equipped car drivers! It was still possible to get it wrong with ABS and collect a cone or 2 but the difference it made was astonishing.

Sounds like we might have been on the same one. The whole experience of changeling dynamics like speed, abs or traction control on or off and being able to experience the effects of this was so beneficial.

[jcochrane]

Some of us here spent a very usueful day on master class for steering and braking with some excellent coaches on an airfield in Cambidgeshire. Amongst the many things I learnt was what would it be like to suddenly have to change lane on a motorway. How does doing this whilst emergency braking feel like. This and many things were covered. I feel the day helped me to understand more deeply the art of driving. Although I hope never to have to call on these experiences I know I am better prepared if they do occur.

How did this come about? Any pointers?

It's a bit off topic but I had to emergency brake recently after a truck I was about to overtake changed lanes without looking, presenting me with an alarming closing speed, and I discovered some poor behaviours like not exerting enough pedal force. I'd like to have a play with this sort of stuff in a safe environment.

It was one of many such events organised each year for members of HPC.

Pointers? I suppose the most important was not to panic and train your self not to look at what you might hit but look for the gap/space where you want the car to go. Sounds easy to say but takes some practice to be disciplined. In an emergency don't get tied up with thinking about steering or keeping to pull/push, just steer instinctively, do what ever you have to do to steer to safety.

With modern abs you can pretty much bury the brake and still steer. The other thing is that without track experience many don't brake hard enough when it's needed. Something I've noticed with many IAM associates, it's quite rare to see finesse and good modulation. I suspect some brake training could be beneficial for most drivers. It seems to me to be an area little taught but in my view the braking/stopping is probably the most important.

[Octy_Ross]

Some of us ...

How did this come about? Any pointers? ...

It was one of many such events organised each year for members of HPC.
...

Also the way in which you use the brakes had an impact too - squeeze them on to get the weight transfer started then bring them in harder as opposed to just banging them on (which caused the fronts to lock / ABS to kick in much sooner).