ADUK Archive

So what makes an 'all season' tyre exactly?

martine wrote:So what makes an 'all season' tyre exactly?

I realise it may not be popular with some on here, but I find the whole idea of winter tyres to be more than a little namby-pamby. When the weather gets a bit cold and there's likely to be ice on the road, I prefer to simply take it easy. I don't like the idea of trusting my safety to the, probably very small in reality, difference in grip between one type of tyre and another.

I believe there's a lot of nonsense going around about the relative advantage or otherwise of one type/brand over another, a lot of it down to marketing.

A few months back, when I needed to fit some new tyres to my car in order to sell it, I fitted an ultra cheap budget brand - I couldn't tell the difference.

I'll get my tin hat.

Silk wrote:I realise it may not be popular with some on here, but I find the whole idea of winter tyres to be more than a little namby-pamby. When the weather gets a bit cold and there's likely to be ice on the road, I prefer to simply take it easy. I don't like the idea of trusting my safety to the, probably very small in reality, difference in grip between one type of tyre and another.

I'm sure this is done to death elsewhere, including the winter tyre thread on here, but you are wrong about this.

My usual summer tyre, the Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2:



My winter tyre, the Nokian WR A3:



Just looking at them, there is obviously going to be a difference, and there is. I can drive on snow and ice with the former, and I have, but to be frank: I'm not in full control of the car. I can mitigate that with 'taking it easy', but I can also find that stopping distances are essentially infinite. Not good; therefore it is irresponsible to drive anywhere with them.

With the latter, as I describe in the other thread, I can drive almost normally, obviously taking into account the conditions.

Note that years ago the F1s wouldn't have existed, at least not as a mass market option; the average tyre would have been geared towards all purpose use, and more like today's all seasons.

Now the question you could ask me is: why don't you just use the Nokians all year, or buy an all season tyre? Are you really exploiting the improved characteristics of the summer tyre? The answer to this is less clear.

martine wrote:So what makes an 'all season' tyre exactly?

Something that's more of an all-rounder. Not necessarily brilliant at anything, but always good enough.

Hanna's car has the same all-season tyres as Chris' although a slightly different size. That's what was fitted on it at the Swaledale ADUK day, and apart from the puncture they worked fine then, and they've also been fine for driving on snow and ice during the current cold snap.

Example:

Silk wrote:I don't like the idea of trusting my safety to the, probably very small in reality, difference in grip between one type of tyre and another.

If you have a look in previous threads Gareth and others have posted numerous videos demonstrating that there's a massive difference between summer and winter tyres, especially in the very poor conditions we have at the moment.

As for the OP, I'm surprised you couldn't get hold of all seasons easily as the tyre chains have picked up on the increased demand for this stuff. Maybe only winters though.

Most people seem to be buying them online, e.g. Oponeo and Mytyres, most of which are Polish warehouses. The prices and availability still seem to be good. Of course you still have to get them fitted.

Your Q3s would have been £60 each with Mytyres, but of course then another £40+ for the lot to be fitted, so you did well.

martine wrote:So what makes an 'all season' tyre exactly?

Generally they are tires that have a compound good for a wide temperature range but with a general purpose (as opposed to low resistance or mud and snow patterns). Essentially they do not harden up as much a summer tires. They are a bit of a compromise "jack of all master of none" , but in our borderline changeable weather there is an argument for them in the UK.

Indeed Bridgestone advise against winter tires in the UK for road use - their position is that their all weather is more suitable for our climate.

Silk wrote:I realise it may not be popular with some on here, but I find the whole idea of winter tyres to be more than a little namby-pamby. When the weather gets a bit cold and there's likely to be ice on the road, I prefer to simply take it easy. I don't like the idea of trusting my safety to the, probably very small in reality, difference in grip between one type of tyre and another.

I have to agree. Even in the severe winters of 09/10 and 10/11 and living in a part of Scotland that was among the worst hit I was still able to get out and about fine with full summer tires. Yes I chose to avoid long distances when the deepest snow was falling - and when the salt stopped working I had to adjust my driving a bit - but given how bad it was I am not convinced I'd be happy to try to drive "normally" if I did have full winters.

In a more normal winter - really the conditions that justify M+S treads don't happen even up here. During this weeks "big freeze" I have driven less than a mile on ice and snow covered roads (ie the few meters from the house to the main road).

I accept that a winter tire may be "better" but the claims that the difference is massive is IMO unfounded for day to day road driving. Those videos and tests that purport to show "massive" differences invariably employ driving styles that are not suitable for road driving in good weather let alone adverse conditions, and I am confidence that a more realistic test of real world road driving would not obtain similar results - with any difference being far less perceptible.

michael769 wrote:I accept that a winter tire may be "better" but the claims that the difference is massive is IMO unfounded for day to day road driving. Those videos and tests that purport to show "massive" differences invariably employ driving styles that are not suitable for road driving in good weather let alone adverse conditions, and I am confidence that a more realistic test of real world road driving would not obtain similar results - with any difference being far less perceptible.

They do not. They show the ability, or lack of, to climb a hill on ungritted roads; or indeed the ability to stop whilst going down one.

I drove in the 2010 winter with the F1s. They were passable, but poor. I remember that stopping at a junction on compacted ice was questionable, pretty much irrespective of speed. At this point, you cannot accurately predict stopping distances or behaviour, so it doesn't really matter how good a planner you are, or what driving style you employ. Obviously you can make it worse, but you cannot make it better short of staying at home, because you are a passenger.

I also couldn't get off my parents' road until the thaw, even with pedestrians assisting, but that's not really a safety issue, just a lifestyle problem.

I have experimented with what I believe to be the same sort of conditions in the recent snow, with winter tyres, same car. It behaved not perfectly, but very well.

chriskay wrote:Yes, I was very surprised. They're easy enough to find on-line but as I said, some of the big players deny they exist.
Oh, and if you can get a tyre fitted, new valve and balanced for £10, that's very good.

Cost me £12.50 this year. A colleague tells me he was quoted £11-15.

trashbat wrote:They do not. They show the ability, or lack of, to climb a hill on ungritted roads; or indeed the ability to stop whilst going down one.

I agree, I have summer tyres on my car and struggled on the hard pack snow to get out of my drive this morning - no grip at all. My wife's car with winter tyres drove past me effortlessly on the same surface.

michael769 wrote:I accept that a winter tire may be "better" but the claims that the difference is massive is IMO unfounded for day to day road driving.

My experience is that on both fresh and compacted snow some winter tyres can give something like a 20-30 mph speed advantage. Maybe you don't think that's a massive difference, but if a driver is only managing 20 mph on normal tyres that's a gain of at least 100%.

it means that within the grip levels I can feel I am free to consider overtaking when I wouldn't contemplate doing so on normal tyres. I've found this to be the case for both the winter and all-season tyres I've tried, whether on our cars or those of friends.

When I first had winter tyres fitted to one of our cars, I let various members of a certain driving club try the car to see for themselves. Since then, and as the use of winter and all-season tyres has become more common amongst the membership of that club, all who tried such tyres and expressed a public opinion have said they were surprised (some said astonished or amazed) by the increased levels of grip, not least for the ability to stop in much shorter distances.

One thing I should say, though, is that not all winter tyres are created equal. Some I've tried on friends' cars haven't been quite so impressive as those I chose for our cars. One person here said (elsewhere) 'I am very impressed with the Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes. [...] Back to back with the Hankook W310s [...], I would say the Wintracs are to the Hankooks what the Hankooks are to Summer tyres.'

The difference isn't so obvious on cold wet roads, but where there are patches of ice, whether after a hard frost or from black ice, then I am confident that the gains are there without being so obvious to the driver.

So I suppose the compromise with 'All season' compared to 'Summer' they are not so good in the summer but better in the winter? Well I just don't know what to do! Complicated business these 'tyre' things.

Our rear wheel drive cars on high performance summer tyres won't move on the slightest slope in snow (don't tell me, it must be my incompetence). Since we live up a hill which does not get cleared they are unusable in snowy conditions. On the other hand I have no problems with them on cold roads in spite of the documented advantages of winter tyres in those conditions.

martine wrote:I suppose the compromise with 'All season' compared to 'Summer' they are not so good in the summer but better in the winter?

You could think of it in terms of different types of tyre being optimised for overlapping temperature ranges. It's probably a good enough model even if not the whole story.

Anyway, consider how the range of normal tyres available these days compares with, say, tyres from 30 years ago. Modern tyres can have a longer life, can be quieter, can be better at clearing water away, can be more economical to use, and so on. Some combination of each of those will apply to most mainstream offerings these days, in varying degrees. Normal tyres are, therefore, generally much more specialised than they used to be.

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