I tried but

[ScoobyChris]

Please also note that I am disappointed in the "expert" comment from Chris.

I think that was Nick who made that comment...

I was at the target speed of about 12 mph roughly where the child cyclist is in the URL picture . The intrusive vehicle was waiting at the left (I was fully aware of him and prepared) he shot forward as I achieved my target speed.

I cannot help but wonder if I made an overlapping approach I could have come in slightly faster hence not communicating hesitancy and made the change smoothly under the cover of braking. Using this approach I cannot recall any one pulling out on me

The picture is quite useful and I can see why the car on the left could have been confused - at that sort of speed in that position, it would seem a fair assumption you were either yielding to the car waiting to come out, or turning left. I'm wondering if you could have aimed to be at the target speed later on the road (perhaps by the point where the emerging car was?) and still comfortably had time to fully separate the braking and gear change?

Chris

[trashbat]

The picture is quite useful and I can see why the car on the left could have been confused - at that sort of speed in that position, it would seem a fair assumption you were either yielding to the car waiting to come out, or turning left. I'm wondering if you could have aimed to be at the target speed later on the road (perhaps by the point where the emerging car was?) and still comfortably had time to fully separate the braking and gear change?

Chris

I'd echo this. If anything, the staggered nature of the junction is in your favour here, as you can slow slightly later relative to the waiting car's position.

In answer to my own question last night about how I would passively communicate my giving way, I would significantly slow and then maintain a low speed some way short of the junction. The speed, distance and thus remaining time to arrival at a conflicting position in the junction would communicate my intention. Of course the point at which people assume you are doing it will of course vary.

My feeling is that pulling off separation in the given context does not require behaviour that communicates this, or more precisely, you can do it without the vast majority of people thinking you are giving way.

I said it wasn't sensible to get caught up in written details of practical driving, but in that linked Maps view, my guess is I would begin braking a bit before being adjacent to the boy on the bike, be off the brakes by the time the nose passed the rear of the silver Astra, and have completed the gear change before turning in. I can't tell you if this is precisely what I would actually do, and nor do I necessarily consider it to be the ideal.

Were you indicating during this manoeuvre? Would doing the opposite of that have changed things at all?

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Please also note that I am disappointed in the "expert" comment from Chris. I have been an observer since 2009 and have been accompanied by Senor Observers and Police Class 1 Drivers. This offers no guarantees but indicates that amongst my local peer group my driving and Observing are seen as to standard, although we can all improve as I strive to do

In other words, you do consider yourself an "expert". I mean this purely in the sense that you are not a novice, but believe yourself to be an advanced driver with the (proven) skills to pass on techniques to your associates and get them through an advanced test. With that in mind, you must accept that most people would expect you to be able to demonstrate separation, and admitting that you still struggle with this technique after, let's say, some 5+ years of advanced driving, must expect some feedback from a group of peers that is in a different vein from that which you would receive if you came here as an associate.

I haven't posted anything regarding your original post, I merely tried to illustrate for you why you may be having some difficulty with the tone of the thread. For what it's worth, having looked at the Streetview link you posted, that particular junction doesn't look like the sort of place where that kind of mistake should easily happen. Early indication, a bold position right up to the centre line (depending, of course on oncoming traffic) and a confident approach, should have deterred the driver in the junction from emerging. However, these things happen, in fact the very same thing happened to me the other night when a taxi decided I was waiting for him when in fact I was timing my approach to the right turn to coincide with the next gap in the traffic, having decided the current one was too risky, and suffering as I am currently from a very sore left ankle. I was taken by surprise, but I know I probably gave off the wrong signals with my overly cautious approach to the right turn.

Don't be deterred - it was a good first post, and I hope you will stick around.

[plumber]

First apologies to Chris he is quite right and his input has helped

Just reading elsewhere a quote by Trashbat

[i]"After pretty much any interaction with a car, big or small, you can always be asking yourself: What works? What doesn't? What risks did doing that expose me to, and how can they be mitigated? What can be done better?"
[/i]

I guess this is my current place

Yes I was Indicating well before having adopted a near centre line position. My view up the road was very good with nothing approaching.

I have read this forum for some years and am aware that some contributors seem to enjoy exercising their adversarial skills and rubbishing those seeking advice. I am content that the later feedback is more considered and helpful from my viewpoint. Maybe I analyse things too deeply but when I get enlightenment on a topic it is far more satisfying than mechanically and blindly following instructions.

[TripleS]

Post deleted.

[plumber]

Thank you for that feedback Dave. I agree with your conclusion. Whilst desirable separation
Appears to be applicable in only select situations.and I also find bgol has a rightness about it rather than braking to a speed early in an inappropriate gear even if momemtarily.

[ScoobyChris]

The policy of slowing unnecessarily early and gently can be overdone, and it can lead to unexpected difficulties, as seems to have happened here.

But this policy applies irrespective of whether BGOL or separation is used and had the OP arrived at the target speed later, separation could still have been comfortably achieved and the chap on the left would have been much less likely to pull out.

Imho

Chris

[jcochrane]

Returning to plumber's OP. I assume the road was flat and you were positioned towards the centre line with an indicator on. You mention that the car then came across and gave a wave of apology.

Surely that suggests that you did not necessarily do anything wrong. The car that went across got it wrong confirmed by their acknowledging their mistake. So firstly I would say don't beat yourself up thinking you must have done something wrong you probably didn't. The fact that you had slowed for the turn avoided an accident. Whatever speed you approached at and in whatever gear would probably not have stopped the other driver from making a mistake.

I would encourage you to persevere in mastering separation. I am a firm believing in lots of practice to perfect as many driving techniques as possible and to know when best to apply them. Having a range of techniques is one aspect that defines the very advanced driver and separates them from the advanced.

In my experience problems with separation are usually resolved by earlier planning and perfecting speed adjustment through throttle and brakes.

If you can, find somewhere quiet where you can repeat the system with the same hazard. Try varying when to start and finish braking, sometimes early and light at other times later and firmer. Change the point at which you complete the braking and select the gear. I would suggest starting with getting speed down early so that after taking the gear the clutch is engaged and you can drive up to the hazard in the lower gear. Varying the approach speed, before commencing braking, can also be practised. You will probably also find it helps to slow the speed down to BELOW your comfort level on the approach to a hazard. Takes pressure off and gives you more time to do things. I'm sure that after an hour or so practising on the same hazard you will have a greatly developed feel for separation.

Might be worth a try.

[jcochrane]

Looking at the map you posted a braking technique that might have been useful would have been to touch the brakes early, to bring on the brake lights, but not enough to significantly reduce speed. Keeping the foot on the brake then apply latish firm braking, just before, the junction on your left. The first third of the distance from this point to shortly before the gear selection taken just before the turn, would be where most the required speed would be lost. (I would be anticipating to have to stop or nearly stop just before making the turn.) This then allows the last two thirds of the distance for easing off the brake, this allows the car to settle and overcomes the lurch if coming off the brake too quickly. Using this braking technique allows the late gear change to be taken without it becoming rushed that happens if lifting off the brake too quickly.

My suggested timings of where to firm up braking etc. would depend on your speed. I assume it was fairly slow through this residential/shopping area, say 25mph.

Not sure how much of that makes sense? I'm not saying that's what you should have done but rather something to think about to see if it could work. Trying to work out ideas from just Google maps I find difficult. It"s not like being there so my suggestion might be totally wrong.

Generally for braking I've found to loose the bulk of the speed in the first third, and this is where the firmest pressure would be (start light then firm up), to allow the following two thirds for progressively easing off the brake to work well for me in most situations.

[trashbat]

For all that I said in this thread, the same thing happened to me yesterday.

Turning left into the work drive, I slowed down sufficiently early so I could select second before the turn. This apparently suggested to my colleague, coming in from the other direction, that I was giving way - so he cut me up.

I do feel this was the product of separation - or at least my implementation of it. I was consciously working on separation because I failed my IAM observer check drive due to BGOL on Sunday. I'll re-read the thread and try to practice what I preached here, but the episode has currently left me a little frustrated, not entirely unlike the OP.

[plumber]

Hi Trashbat et al.

Since the original posting I have reviewed and re-examined what I think and reflected upon some good intelligent sense and an awful lot of shear blind dogma
I now think of the overlapping issue as follows.
1. Roadcraft looks to equip us with a flexible approach which has the underpinning aim of ensuring that any driver achieves the correct position, speed and gear for a hazard in the safest unhurried manner possible.
2. Basic tenets of the IPSGA approach is to
a. Start the system early enough to create time and space
b. separate each action to ensure the driver can control the car as safely as possible.
3. Using the example of a L.H. Turn from a main road at a speed suitable for the conditions. we aim to achieve the following by the start of the turn
• positioned favouring the near side
• achieved a speed suitable for the turn
• be in a gear suitable for the speed
4. From the decision point to take the turn 2 approaches have evolved to achieve the aim of point 3
a. Separation of the Brake and gear phase
b. Overlapping the gear phase with the back end of braking
5. Separation is an evident safe approach and given correct conditions it is relaxed. Unfortunately circumstances occur when overlapping can prove safer.In such cases the need to overlap should be recognised early and be planned for
a. If you have someone around you who mistakes the more relaxed approach in a manner that
causes them to undertake an action (brake, overtake, cut in etc.)
b. Downhill when the vehicle would run on
c. ……
6. In conclusion Overlapping should not of itself be criticised but any unplanned rushed action that fails to ensure that you are fully ready to drive into a corner when you arrive at it should be. It is often portrayed that overlapping is an exception which implies rarity but IMHO the need for it occurs much more often than acknowledged.
John

[jcochrane]

.....the Police conditions Roadcraft is intended for than the Civilian bastardisation. If you're giving it the full beans, there really isn't much time during a braking phase to take a gear and separation makes a lot more sense.

An extremely valid point. Twos and blues style driving is totally unlike normal road driving, cricuit racing or track driving. I think you have highlighted something that tends to be overlooked or forgotten. It certainly made me think back to driving with the police and I had not really thought about it before how different it is. Sometimes there was hardly enough time,during braking, to even consider and set up for heel n toe. So thanks, Dave, for bringing up what is a very important point.

[plumber]

Are you guys for real.

How many times have I read and heard that Police Pursuit drivers "invented" overlapping in order to take corners very quickly. My Group's PC1 states this as fact quite often. Imagine racing after a baddy and decelarating from say 100nph smoothy down to 10mph about an artic away from a corner and taking a leisurely second gear and blasting into the new road. - Not a chance

[TripleS]

Are you guys for real.

How many times have I read and heard that Police Pursuit drivers "invented" overlapping in order to take corners very quickly. My Group's PC1 states this as fact quite often. Imaging racing after a baddy and decelarating from say 100nph smoothy down to 10mph about an artic away from a corner and taking a leisurely second gear and blasting into the new road. - Not a chance

Hah, this should be interesting.

[jcochrane]

Imaging racing after a baddy and decelarating from say 100nph smoothy down to 10mph about an artic away from a corner and taking a leisurely second gear and blasting into the new road. - Not a chance

As you say "not a chance" but I don't think this is what StressedDave was describing in his post.