I tried but

[Custom24]

In my mischievous mode.
Would it then be logical, from a safety point of view, to be even better to heel n toe? With the foot on the brake during the gear change phase if an emergency occurs fractions of a second can be saved and the stopping distance shortened.

I don't think you were serious with that suggestion, but it does raise an interesting point. Have you ever had to do an emergency stop in the middle of a heel and toe? I've practiced this a couple of times, but never had to do it for real. I do wonder if emergency braking would be compromised.

[jcochrane]

In my mischievous mode.
Would it then be logical, from a safety point of view, to be even better to heel n toe? With the foot on the brake during the gear change phase if an emergency occurs fractions of a second can be saved and the stopping distance shortened.

I don't think you were serious with that suggestion, but it does raise an interesting point. Have you ever had to do an emergency stop in the middle of a heel and toe? I've practiced this a couple of times, but never had to do it for real. I do wonder if emergency braking would be compromised.

Yes I have practiced this and continue do so from time to time. I've not found emergency braking to be compromised, the reverse in fact as I already have my foot on the brake and already braking.

Was I being serious? Using either heel n toe or full separation you can be in the same position at the same speed on the road when doing the gear change under full separation, with heel and toe the gear change would already be completed. In the unlikely event that an emergency stop is required I would rather be using heel n toe than in the middle of a gear change under full separation.

[jcochrane]

They can but if you dont avoid it then you have not planned well enough

Maybe your right.
A few years ago I was riding my bike home on a very dark night. I was in a poorly lit residential area on the major, though quite narrow road. There were a number of narrow side roads and many parked cars on all roads. I heard a police siren which naturally made me more alert and adjust my speed whilst working out how far away the siren was and in which direction it was going.I don't know about others but in built up areas it can be quite difficult to judge the progress of the sirens regarding direction and nearness until quite close . The siren stopped but I was still riding warily. I was about to pass a small minor road on my left that had a left hand bend on the approach to the junction with the road I was on. I listened and looked and all was clear so I continued across the mouth of the junction. I was almost clear when an unlit car driven at high speed hurtled round the bend and just missed my rear wheel. It was pursued by a police car which turned on the two tones as it rounded and approached the junction. It was a very near miss and but for a few inches would have been disastrous for me.

The question I'm now pondering is what was missing in my planning and how could I have planned better.

I have come to the conclusion that where I failed in my planning was that I should have checked the tarot that morning. Then I would have known what was going to happen and I could have left the bike at home that day or chosen another route.

Note: The above story is completely true and not made up.

[Gareth]

The question I'm now pondering is what was missing in my planning and how could I have planned better.

This may seem like a silly comment (and question) but ... could it have been that your observation had failed in that you didn't notice the significance of the sound of the car approaching at high speed?

[jcochrane]

The question I'm now pondering is what was missing in my planning and how could I have planned better.

This may seem like a silly comment (and question) but ... could it have been that your observation had failed in that you didn't notice the significance of the sound of the car approaching at high speed?

No it's not a silly question at all. I asked myself the very same question at the time. Bearing in mind I was being cautious and particularly using hearing because of the dark did make me wonder how I could have missed it. The only explanation I can think of was that the side road was a steep hill. So maybe a high gear was being used and probably braking for the bend would mean they were off the gas. It must have been the sound of the engine on exiting the bend under what sounded like exceptionally hard accelerating and the two tones of the police car that alerted me to the danger I might be in and made me stand on the pedals, without even looking, to get out of the way. It was only as it passed me and tore up the road I noticed it had no lights on and was hotly pursued by the police car.

[Stephen]

How did you miss the flashing lights of the approaching police vehicle,let alone the reflection of same,i might have missed the point are you saying that the police car had no lights on as well as the target vehicle,I take it both vehicles were travelling from behind you.

If the police vehicle was approaching junction to your left then the same reflection of flashing lights,would have been your clue or should I say Information . I just dont get how you could miss the tell tale signs of an emergency vehicle approaching,unless you are saying that it to had switched all of it's emergency equipment off and we had some of the best conditions for excellent reflection ie very dark night,poor lighting.

If I have mis read your post then I apoligise but I am trying to set the scene and put myself in your position to get a feel of what /how it went wrong,even a few years ago prior to Strobe and LED lights they were still good quality lighting on police vehicle's.

[waremark]

How did you miss the flashing lights of the approaching police vehicle,let alone the reflection of same,i might have missed the point are you saying that the police car had no lights on as well as the target vehicle,I take it both vehicles were travelling from behind you.

The police car was concealed from him by a bend in the side road from which it subsequently arrived. He is not saying it had no lights, but they were not yet visible to him at the time of the near-miss with the chased vehicle, and the two-tones were temporarily off.

[jcochrane]

How did you miss the flashing lights of the approaching police vehicle,let alone the reflection of same,i might have missed the point are you saying that the police car had no lights on as well as the target vehicle,I take it both vehicles were travelling from behind you.

The police car was concealed from him by a bend in the side road from which it subsequently arrived. He is not saying it had no lights, but they were not yet visible to him at the time of the near-miss with the chased vehicle, and the two-tones were temporarily off.

Thanks Mark. It was the target car with no lights. As you have said when I looked up the side road no cars were visible or blue lights and the siren was off. This happened 15 years ago.

[Stephen]

No,you miss my point reflection occurrs in open spaces and in building lines more better in the latter,if the light where not visible then the vehicles were no where in danger zone,unless travelling at warp factor one,still reflection.

No matter what you say there would have been some tell tale information coming to you, I have been driving emergency vehicles for 23yrs+ and I believe that I know a bit about this and have studied multiple incidents where drivers /Riders have said this they didnt have lights on ,they didn't have sirens on etc.

Then a reconstruction so to speak reveals all,so,no matter how many years ago it doesnt change the incident,only people do.

[jcochrane]

No,you miss my point reflection occurrs in open spaces and in building lines more better in the latter,if the light where not visible then the vehicles were no where in danger zone,unless travelling at warp factor one,still reflection.

No matter what you say there would have been some tell tale information coming to you, I have been driving emergency vehicles for 23yrs+ and I believe that I know a bit about this and have studied multiple incidents where drivers /Riders have said this they didnt have lights on ,they didn't have sirens on etc.

Then a reconstruction so to speak reveals all,so,no matter how many years ago it doesnt change the incident,only people do.

I hadn't missed your point and I fully agree there is no way anyone can miss those blues and the way they bounce around. Very impresive the way they light the place up. Deffinitely at their most impressive at night when they create quite an amazing light show. But they need to be on to be seen.

After the near miss, with the unlit chased car, I immediately stopped as I was fully aware of the police car having been alerted to its presence when the siren and blue lights were turned on. It was the turning on of the these, in particular, that made me stand on the pedals and saved me being hit.

We will have to agree to disagree on this as nothing I say will change your mind. You have come to a descison based on your considerable specialist knowledge and training and there is no reason why you should accept my version particularly as your experience has shown that invariably statements from members of the public are incorrect or unreliable and don't stand up to the investigations you undertake.

[plumber]

[b]From the earlier contribution from "trashbat" [/b]
concerning my point of seperation"...In essence, that was too late and he should have already been in the correct gear by that time - earlier actions would have allowed additional time for the other driver to have accomplished his manoeuvre without causing any grief.."

An interesting point. I was told by Senior observer (Police C1) That you should be at your turning speed and off the brake about an arctic length from the point of turning, which I planned to do, to give a 1 to 2 second lag to make an unhurried change. How far back up the road then do you need to plan to have changed gear when turning right from a 30 road into another 30 road? Half a mile? a mile? stop dead to allow everyone who could turn across you. I am a very patient driver but not that patient.
[b]
Also Scoopy Chris Wrote[/b]
"I think as a coach it's important to allow an associate to explore all the techniques for themselves and decide which they like and when they might use it. Just because I believe a technique is best, doesn't mean it is"

So its OK to have an opinion of whats best and presumably you work at that preferred skill. Then you can talk and demonstrate your preference with confidence and knowledge and not being perfect I strive to knowledgeably offer my Associates the opportunity to make their own decisions. Unlike some on the Forum I like to offer constructive advice

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I think:

It's strange that plumber is an IAM observer not having mastered separation. Perhaps this is not the case and we should stop assuming it.

@plumber - perhaps people are not being as unhelpful as it may appear. If you take the trouble to read the posts from Gareth and others in detail you will find a lot of constructive information along with the nuance you have detected, which I suspect is occasioned by their surprise at my point above.

In other words, you can't be both an expert and a novice at the same time. You have to take a stance that is consistent and explain your background, while keeping an open mind to the criticism (in its generic sense) that you receive. If you choose to pose as an expert, then you must expect to have more stringent standards applied to you, and vice-versa.

Hope this helps.

[ScoobyChris]

So its OK to have an opinion of whats best and presumably you work at that preferred skill. Then you can talk and demonstrate your preference with confidence and knowledge and not being perfect I strive to knowledgeably offer my Associates the opportunity to make their own decisions. Unlike some on the Forum I like to offer constructive advice

But I think you're missing my point. The idea of observing is not to showcase or "sell" your preferred way of doing something, it's to enable an associate to decide on the best approach for them (provided that it achieves the desired end result), rather than to simply clone your driving style.

Of course that's just my opinion

Chris

[trashbat]

From the earlier contribution from "trashbat"
concerning my point of seperation"...In essence, that was too late and he should have already been in the correct gear by that time - earlier actions would have allowed additional time for the other driver to have accomplished his manoeuvre without causing any grief.."

An interesting point. I was told by Senior observer (Police C1) That you should be at your turning speed and off the brake about an arctic length from the point of turning, which I planned to do, to give a 1 to 2 second lag to make an unhurried change. How far back up the road then do you need to plan to have changed gear when turning right from a 30 road into another 30 road? Half a mile? a mile? stop dead to allow everyone who could turn across you. I am a very patient driver but not that patient.

It wasn't my advice, but someone I quoted. I do agree with it, although I feel it does not run counter to what the observer told you.

I'll start by saying it's very difficult to translate a written description of precise motion and timing to/from real experience, so I'm not going to attempt it. However an illustration might help the matter. I'm going to take a guess at one of many possibilities of where you were, and guess at here. Is that correct? The mouth of the junction is wide so influences how to analyse what you wrote.

At which stages in the complete manoeuvre do you think the 'indecisiveness' was communicated?

Also, think about it in terms of your own perspective, but with the other driver's behaviour in mind. If you HAD been intending to let him go first, but without having to explicitly stop or direct him to do anything, how would you have driven?

What are the commonalities between the two?

If there are sufficient similarities, perhaps you could look at what you can do in that phase. There is flexibility here whilst still complying with separation: early vs heavier braking, early vs late arrival at a steady turning speed, early vs late gear selection, to name a few.

If there are insufficient similarities, that would suggest to me that your wife was wrong and the other driver made an error not influenced by your technique.

I haven't read the whole thread but I also hope that someone has pointed out that Roadcraft has a piece on this sort of problem. I quote from page 69:

"When drivers first learn the system of car control,they separate braking and gear changing and try not to overlap. The problem with this approach to tight turns is that if you brake some distance before the turn to avoid an overlap you can confuse other drivers with unexpected results ... Approaching drivers preparing to turn into the same junction may think you have slowed to leave space for them to turn ahead of you"

You should read the whole piece that this comes from, as it is slightly out of context here. Be aware that it is recommended for only very limited scenarios, and the description above may not even fit that in the OP. If it does fit, then it should not be used to write off the separation technique in non-exceptional applications.

[plumber]

Thanks Trashbat I found your response interesting and helpful. The location of the debacle was the next crossroads toward Liverpool
[url]
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=rainhill ... ,,0,0&z=16
[/url]

I was at the target speed of about 12 mph roughly where the child cyclist is in the URL picture . The intrusive vehicle was waiting at the left (I was fully aware of him and prepared) he shot forward as I achieved my target speed.

I cannot help but wonder if I made an overlapping approach I could have come in slightly faster hence not communicating hesitancy and made the change smoothly under the cover of braking. Using this approach I cannot recall any one pulling out on me

Please also note that I am disappointed in the "expert" comment from Chris. I have been an observer since 2009 and have been accompanied by Senor Observers and Police Class 1 Drivers. This offers no guarantees but indicates that amongst my local peer group my driving and Observing are seen as to standard, although we can all improve as I strive to do