ADUK Archive

plumber wrote:Are you guys for real.

How many times have I read and heard that Police Pursuit drivers "invented" overlapping in order to take corners very quickly. My Group's PC1 states this as fact quite often. Imagine racing after a baddy and decelarating from say 100nph smoothy down to 10mph about an artic away from a corner and taking a leisurely second gear and blasting into the new road. - Not a chance

Why not?

What's important is that you are in a good safe position on approach, that your entry speed is appropriate & that the vehicle is in a suitable gear for that speed (& circumstance), so that you can maintain a desired line safely through the turn & make your desired progress on the exit relative to the next hazard.

How that is exactly achieved may differ. Some people may find they achieve all of that whilst overlapping, whilst others may find that they do separating. What really matters is being able to maintain those objectives consistently rather than the method. Doing it for a test where the organisation setting the test limits your choices to just one method, only complicates that for you if the method they require isn't one you find gets you the best results consistently. If it's the way that does suit you best then it's not a problem

vonhosen wrote:What really matters is being able to maintain those objectives consistently rather than the method.

A ray of sunshine! Alas, the observer training is not so interested in such pragmatism. In their defence I can see why; we are not the target audience, after all. I will persevere.

Welcome back, by the way.

Plumber,

I think Dave and John are real, if that helps.

I'm not sure how helpful it is to analyse how police drivers pursue. It's not where I'd go looking for examples of really excellent driving if I'm honest, because the pursuit rather overrides mechanical sympathy and elegance, which are both important to me for cost and other reasons. I also only rarely approach slow speed turns from three figure speeds.

Having waded through the whole thing now my money would be on Dave's analysis of why the other driver was misled by your chassis language. It was something he picked out when coaching me. Fixing it took about 10 minutes.

James

JamesAllport wrote:Plumber,

Having waded through the whole thing now my money would be on Dave's analysis of why the other driver was misled by your chassis language. It was something he picked out when coaching me. Fixing it took about 10 minutes.

James

Yes, any method you chose needs to be based on a consideration of how people will interpret & act as a result of your choices. 'Chassis language' can be used for benefit or can lead to increased risk through causing confusion.

Can either of you define what you mean by 'chassis language'? I've heard it several times in the context of communicating your intent to others, and have the gist, but a little more expansion or precision would help.

trashbat wrote:Can either of you define what you mean by 'chassis language'? I've heard it several times in the context of communicating your intent to others, and have the gist, but a little more expansion or precision would help.

When I brake where does weight transfer?
Is this so much that it is visible to somebody outside observing me?
They will interpret that information & make choices based on it.

If I brake firmly in order to make space for separation anybody (initially) waiting to cross my path, may change their choice from 'to wait' to 'to go' based on this new information. If I want to dissuade them from going I've got to be careful not to open the door to it with the information I give to them.

Thanks, I thought it might be that, but illustrating your planning was helpful.

Do you think this is consciously/subconciously identified by the typical driver, such that they change behaviour based on it?

Then again, I suppose it still matters if one person does pick up on it, so perhaps it's a moot point.

trashbat wrote:Do you think this is consciously/subconciously identified by the typical driver, such that they change behaviour based on it?

I do, where people look & see that it is.
If they don't look, or look but don't see, it won't make a blind bit of difference.

To see the power of body language (chassis language if you must):-
Take an unusual line around a roundabout (I have been known to) -- you will see how many people judge their decisions based on your line, heading and attitude rather than -- say -- your flashing yellow lights.

It's something you need to be fully aware of when positioning your vehicle anywhere other than where Mrs Miggins would put it.

vonhosen wrote:

trashbat wrote:Can either of you define what you mean by 'chassis language'? I've heard it several times in the context of communicating your intent to others, and have the gist, but a little more expansion or precision would help.

When I brake where does weight transfer?
Is this so much that it is visible to somebody outside observing me?
They will interpret that information & make choices based on it.

If I brake firmly in order to make space for separation anybody (initially) waiting to cross my path, may change their choice from 'to wait' to 'to go' based on this new information. If I want to dissuade them from going I've got to be careful not to open the door to it with the information I give to them.

Another example of similar 'communication' can come from positioning; if there's a left hand bend with a junction on the 'outside', and you approach the bend by choosing a position towards the centre line, then slow early . . . what's the driver in the junction likely to think? If it's "Oh, he's slowing to turn in" then it's highly likely you'll have that driver emerging in front of you just as you get the power back on.

Oddly enough I completely agree with much of what is said. So much is dependent upon the situation as experienced by the OP. Both in my original case and I think in the case of trashbat bringing it for a hearing here would be great if it resulted in new knowledge, an altered perspective or some advice/enlightenment to put in that great store cupboard called experience I do get disheatened when Forum dwellers dive into very specific scenarios with the intention of one upmanship on a fellow driver or pushing their particular hang up or new terminology.

i was heartened when I discovoered that many months after my separation mis-hap another human being had a similar issue. Very grateful also that he can reflect and write about it. I summarised my deliberations from my time a page or so back and in it tried hard to echo the "it depends" generality that so much of driving is about. I am still shocked by the rebuttle from Van who has a near Guru reputation on many subjects including BGOL. I picked on a police blues and twos scenario purely to set a scene to make a point of a need to make very significant progress by Advanced Drivers who are taught to do just that. When reading Van's response I had a mental picture of a very refined PC in a Saville Row uniform tottling up to a corner at 3 mph having done a gear change wih pinkies held up and warily steering around a corner to orchestral music and a Butler dabbing his forehead. So glad I see this often happening on Road Wars (that's an example for my point before anyone piles in I rarely watch the program)

I also take heart from an old topic comment (from I think Van)that if you would cause a following car to brake then overlapping is justified. Funny that isn't it

7db wrote:To see the power of body language (chassis language if you must):-
Take an unusual line around a roundabout (I have been known to) --

Yes, I remember having it demonstrated, thank you.

Not suggesting it was wrong so much as unusual and surprising, at least to me.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

7db wrote:To see the power of body language (chassis language if you must):-
Take an unusual line around a roundabout (I have been known to) -- you will see how many people judge their decisions based on your line, heading and attitude rather than -- say -- your flashing yellow lights.

IMO this is something separate, in that it's simply positioning, although maybe users of the term intend to cover it, I don't know. Equally in my case my speed at different distances before the turn was not itself chassis language, although it did send a message nonetheless.

The balance of the car that Von talks about is a more subtle clue that I wasn't sure if other people pick up on.

I think Von's illustration was chassis language in a vertical or longitudinal plane, coupled with a particular choice of speed profile. I don't see how using lateral positioning is any different. Because it's more common, and because we also use it for safety and vision, we think of it as a skill in its own right, but from the outside, as the driver of another vehicle, it can also communicate intent. Bold positioning to dominate a one-way gap, early indication or movement before an overtake, to deter other road users etc. are examples of "assertive" chassis language, but equally there are "submissive" ones - like indicating to change lanes on a motorway in advance of a gap, and staying put, or even moving slightly left to emphasise the fact that you are waiting, and just "booking a place". Lots more...

Edit: better choice of words as suggested by TripleS.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Bold positioning to dominate a one-way gap, early indication or movement before an overtake, to deter other road users etc. are examples of "aggressive" chassis language...

I don't see that as aggressive; I'd rather describe it as positive or assertive.

It's taking a lead, or strongly suggesting how things should be; though it's wise to ensure we have an alternative plan in case the other guy is aggressive and does not accept our suggestion.

This sort of discussion sometimes makes driving feel to be a very confrontational business, and in reality I don't find it to be like that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.