Can you always avoid being forced to speed by others?

[Ancient]

A question inspired by the PhD survey elsewhere on this forum, and the questions about being able to avoid being caused to speed by the actions of others :

You are driving along a motorway. In front there are two heavies, one overtaking the other (slowly ) in lane2.

In order to avoid waiting for the next x miles whilst the overtake is completed (or abandoned), you (check etc and) take position in lane3. You of course wait until the 'tunnel' is clear of cars ahead, then accelerate to an appropriate speed past the two heavies. Of course, the driver behind does not wait for the 'tunnel' to clear and tailgates you in . As you pass, the heavy in lane2 starts to weave. Do you:

a. Continue at the same speed ("I will not be forced to speed by the actions of others")?
b. Brake to drop behind (causing the car behind to brake also)?
c. Accelerate above your chosen 'appropriate speed' for the overtake (forced to speed by the tailgating car and the weaving heavy)?
d. 'I would have gone past so fast that the weaving wouldn't have affected me'?

Genuine question that occurred to me (the question, not such an incident) whilst driving on the M4 this week...

[ScoobyChris]

It depends

But probably plump for a) as I've chosen the speed for a reason and it's probably a good reason (which will include limiting the time spent alongside an HGV for the very reason highlighted). Saying that, though, I've never encountered a scenario like that before when driving on the motorway so maybe I'm actually d)

Chris

[jameslb101]

Given HGVs are limited to 56mph, I'd be passing with speed differential that would mean I'd be clear of them in little over 2 seconds. Therefore, most probably a).

I'd also maximise space between myself and the truck, and analyse the space and surface of the central reservation median in case I needed to move across further.

[Horse]

Is this allowed?

Accelerate to clear the 'tunnel', then slow to HGV speed to trap the tailgater alongside the HGV.

[7db]

In order to avoid waiting for the next x miles whilst the overtake is completed (or abandoned)

There's the first choice being made, right there.

[dombooth]

Simple answer - yes.

Wait in lane 2 while the 'tunnel' is clear.

If you are in lane 3 waiting for the tunnel to clear with another car steaming down on you from behind, move over and let him past.

Dom

[Ancient]

In order to avoid waiting for the next x miles whilst the overtake is completed (or abandoned)

There's the first choice being made, right there.

Indeed, but realistically are you saying that you never use lane3 (because any time you use lane3 to overtake, you will be making a third vehicle alongside at some point)? Someone was asking (here? Or on IAM form?) why some drivers just sit in lane2 and never move out when they encounter a slower vehicle. Is that what you are advocating?

Simple answer - yes.

Wait in lane 2 while the 'tunnel' is clear.

If you are in lane 3 waiting for the tunnel to clear with another car steaming down on you from behind, move over and let him past.

Dom

Dom, similar to the above. If you are in lane2 at 56mph behind the heavy, on a reasonably busy motorway you 'never' see (ok 'will have a 'very long wait for') the tunnel clearing at the same time as nothing is approaching in lane3, or indeed sitting just behind you.Tailgaters don't always 'steam down on you'; they often just sit behind, too close and following your every move as if on a tow-rope (it saves them having to think about what they are doing).

Are you therefore advocating not using lane3 until there's no-one in sight ahead or behind? Instead sitting in lane 2 and accelerating or slowing according to what's in front?

All those millions wasted on building a third lane!

[dombooth]

Simple answer - yes.

Wait in lane 2 while the 'tunnel' is clear.

If you are in lane 3 waiting for the tunnel to clear with another car steaming down on you from behind, move over and let him past.

Dom

Dom, similar to the above. If you are in lane2 at 56mph behind the heavy, on a reasonably busy motorway you 'never' see (ok 'will have a 'very long wait for') the tunnel clearing at the same time as nothing is approaching in lane3, or indeed sitting just behind you.Tailgaters don't always 'steam down on you'; they often just sit behind, too close and following your every move as if on a tow-rope (it saves them having to think about what they are doing).

Are you therefore advocating not using lane3 until there's no-one in sight ahead or behind? Instead sitting in lane 2 and accelerating or slowing according to what's in front?

All those millions wasted on building a third lane!

Ah okay, If it's busy then assert your possition in lane 3 just behind the back of the lorry in lane 2 and wait until there's a gap to the front of the lorry.

Dom

[Ancient]

Simple answer - yes.

Wait in lane 2 while the 'tunnel' is clear.

If you are in lane 3 waiting for the tunnel to clear with another car steaming down on you from behind, move over and let him past.

Dom

Dom, similar to the above. If you are in lane2 at 56mph behind the heavy, on a reasonably busy motorway you 'never' see (ok 'will have a 'very long wait for') the tunnel clearing at the same time as nothing is approaching in lane3, or indeed sitting just behind you.Tailgaters don't always 'steam down on you'; they often just sit behind, too close and following your every move as if on a tow-rope (it saves them having to think about what they are doing).

Are you therefore advocating not using lane3 until there's no-one in sight ahead or behind? Instead sitting in lane 2 and accelerating or slowing according to what's in front?

All those millions wasted on building a third lane!

Ah okay, If it's busy then assert your possition in lane 3 just behind the back of the lorry in lane 2 and wait until there's a gap to the front of the lorry.

Dom

Errr, yeah - that's what I (thought I) said? "wait until the 'tunnel' is clear of cars ahead, then accelerate to an appropriate speed past the two heavies" .... It's after that the question arose .

I have had heavies start to weave as I overtake and I do ensure there's as much room as possible between me and them (where possible using lane3 when they are in lane1) - that goes back to the motorbiking days!
Personally, I would probably select 'c' since the reason I'd have selected my current speed would have been it's the maximum legal speed and allows maximum differential without breaking the law. If that speed became dangerous (as in this example) and having ensured there was plenty of clear space ahead ("the 'tunnel' is clear"), then exceeding the limit becomes (IMO) the only safe option.
My conclusion is therefore that there are occasions where I could be forced by others to break the speed limit (i.e. on rare occasions, the choice is not entirely my own).

[ScoobyChris]

At what point of passing a weaving lorry would you decide accelerating (into potential danger?) was the most desirable option rather than scrubbing speed off? If a crash is likely, I'd pick being rear ended to an impact with an HGV

Chris

[fungus]

At what point of passing a weaving lorry would you decide accelerating (into potential danger?) was the most desirable option rather than scrubbing speed off? If a crash is likely, I'd pick being rear ended to an impact with an HGV

Chris

But there is also danger from the following vehicle as the driver is expecting you to carry out the overtake, and in the example given, you are already alongside the heavy with the following driver tailgating you. I would therefore ignore the speed limit and get by as quickly as possible. However, before committing to the overtake, I would use a long head light flash from a distance to alert the driver of my presence just in case they hadn't seen me. Then if I'm happy that they've seen me, I would commit.

[GJD]

I think the driver forcing you to speed is the driver of the weaving HGV. As an aside, what's the relevance of the tailgater - just the influence he has on option b? Does he have any on option c?

Personally, I would probably select 'c' since the reason I'd have selected my current speed would have been it's the maximum legal speed and allows maximum differential without breaking the law. If that speed became dangerous (as in this example) and having ensured there was plenty of clear space ahead ("the 'tunnel' is clear"), then exceeding the limit becomes (IMO) the only safe option.
My conclusion is therefore that there are occasions where I could be forced by others to break the speed limit (i.e. on rare occasions, the choice is not entirely my own).

I'm not sure. Generally you have three options when you want to get out of a situation - you can speed up, slow down or change direction. Any time you elect to drive at the maximum speed you would be prepared to do, you deny yourself the first of those options. In your example, if you choose to drive past the HGVs at the speed limit then you alone have made the choice that renders the first of those options illegal.

[Ancient]

At what point of passing a weaving lorry would you decide accelerating (into potential danger?) was the most desirable option rather than scrubbing speed off? If a crash is likely, I'd pick being rear ended to an impact with an HGV

Chris

IME it's usually the trailer that begins to shake (then shaking the cab), rather than the cab swerving then the trailer (although I've seen that too obviously). either way I'd rather accelerate and steer past the cab than try to out-manoevre the bogie as it swings wildly behind me !

Edit to add: GJD the tailgater just appeared in my example because, well - because they so often just appear . As above, the bogie is (for me) enough reason to get out forwards (once fairly alongside of course, there's always an 'abort' being considered until it is no longer viable), the tailgater is common though and does tend to reinforce the option.

Oh and I'd go through at the maximum legal speed to start with, in order to reduce my time exposed to this possibility to the legally-allowed minimum. Which of course is what makes the exercise interesting

[ScoobyChris]

But there is also danger from the following vehicle as the driver is expecting you to carry out the overtake, and in the example given, you are already alongside the heavy with the following driver tailgating you. I would therefore ignore the speed limit and get by as quickly as possible.

If I'm being a naughty boy and overtaking an HGV at 80mph, then I have a 10 m/s advantage. How long is an HGV? For a 44T artic, it's 16.5m so my time alongside is less than 2s. What speed can I realistically achieve in those 2 seconds (I drive a run of the mill diesel hatchback!) and will it make any real difference to the situation, other than psychological?

If I was overtaking a van/car/other with a much lower speed differential, accelerating out of danger would be a more useful tool, imho.

Chris

[fungus]

It would depend on the power available to you, but I would imagine that most modern turbo diesels would have sufficient power. If the weave started early in the overtake then maybe braking would be the safer option.