Overtaking queues and the chance of someone pulling out

[trashbat]

Cross-posted from PH, but you guys always have something to add.

This morning I found myself here, on a road I know well: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=50.984937,-1.515813&...

In front was a tractor, doing 20mph, and a line of cars, roughly as follows:

Tractor
Citroen Picasso
Recent Renault Clio
Something maroon
Possibly something else
Fake M badged BMW E36
Me, cooking Alfa 156

Noone in the queue was showing any willingness to overtake, as an excellent but time limited opportunity developed after the double white lines finish. Admittedly I did not wait long before deciding to overtake, which I will come back to.

I did the IAM taught technique of getting offside, having a look (clear as far as visible) and committing.

Now I am very conscious of the chance of someone pulling out, so I keep an eye on the cars I'm passing. I also know that the chance increases as I near the front of the queue, as the typical driver is reticent to do multi-car overtakes.

In line with that thinking, before I pass the Clio I pip the horn as a warning. Despite this, as I am nearly alongside the Clio, the driver begins indicating and moving out. The Picasso is still in front of her. I use the horn again, but there is a collision. Fortunately all that has happened is my wing mirror has been folded in, and, it transpires once we later pull in, the glass in hers is damaged. The other driver was an elderly lady.

What is the consensus on this kind of situation?

I'm also interested in your thoughts on the initial use of the horn. I wonder if it contributed, e.g. compelled her to get on with her own progress as if it were done by a following car.

In a way I feel that I've been taught a lesson about the risk threshold in this scenario being too high, especially without waiting sufficiently long for the situation to develop. In another way I feel that I exercised a good technique that probably prevented a worse outcome.

Although I regard it as less important than avoiding the accident, I'm also curious as to what the liability view would be. She didn't monitor her mirrors or check the blind spot before the manoeuvre, and yet I was doing something that could be described as 'fraught with difficulty', a bit like filtering on a bike.

[7db]

Why didn't you stop?

[trashbat]

Stop when/where?

I stopped where safe after the collision. I indicated left immediately afterwards and when I pulled into a layby, the other driver followed.

If you mean stop in the sense of aborting the overtake, I perceived it as too late as the Clio was almost alongside, and at that point, I perceived the safer course of action to be continued acceleration.

[ScoobyChris]

Dammit - I've just posted my reply in the other place

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My own personal feeling is that if you are considering using the horn, you need to do it such that you give yourself time to check for a response (you're alerting someone to your presence, and you want some form of acknowledgement before committing). Without a response, are you any better off than not using the horn? Might also be worth considering whether a 'pip' is enough to gain their attention - some car's horns can be a tad asthmatic and you might want to reinforce it a series of pips or with headlights until you're happy they're aware of you

From an insurance perspective, I'd be guessing 50/50 liability unless you could prove conclusively that your overtake was safe and the lady drove into you, but I can't see them wanting to fight too hard over it
---

Chris

[trashbat]

Largely agreed; on balance, I couldn't be certain that it gained anything, and nor could I be certain that it didn't introduce doubt. I like the technique because it would work well on me, but perhaps this is a poor benchmark.

What, if anything, would have worked better? What is the suggested technique for motorcyclists?

[Gareth]

Before starting such an overtake I'd probably make sure I had the headlights on. If as I was overtaking I noticed a car beginning to drift out I'd be using a long horn, sounding it continuously until they drifted back!

[martine]

*** edited: just seen Gareth's post above - sorry for the duplication (great mind and all that!)

Did you consider putting your headlights on? Was the horn a 'blip' or a full-cream blast?

Would I have done multiple overtake like this? Probably not...2 or 3 cars possibly but not as you describe it...but then again I wasn't there so I can't be sure.

I don't think legally you did anything wrong...but you still ended up with a 'bent' car and I bet you felt rather sheepish as the other vehicles went past once you'd pulled in.

Everyone's nightmare and I don't think there is an easy answer.

[trashbat]

Normally I have the headlights on for such occasions. This time, I can't be certain, but probably not. Perhaps this indicates a certain lack of preparation, in that I wasn't fully expecting the opportunity to present itself.

The horn was a beep.

Were the speeds higher, I definitely wouldn't have gone for it, but gut feel was that it was akin to overtaking an artic at 40mph speeds - something I've pulled off in that location plenty of times, though I wouldn't say that made me complacent. I couldn't tell you at what point on the road I completed the overtake, but eventually there is a layby on the left before the get back arrows, and it took a long time post-overtake before I reached this.

Of course here there were an unusually high number of human factors to go wrong.

[ScoobyChris]

What, if anything, would have worked better? What is the suggested technique for motorcyclists?

I can't comment on what would have worked better as I wasn't there, but I think it's worth considering each overtake as an individual overtake (complete with escape plan) and ensuring that everyone is steady or co-operative. What made you beep the Renault and not the cars behind it? Would beeping at each car reduce the risk of one at the front being surprised by the use of the horn, or perhaps kick them into action earlier if their intention was to overtake?

Not sure on suggested techniques for motorcyclists but the number of campaigns getting me to "think bike" suggest that they are generally not being proactive enough in making people around them more aware of their presence. I wonder how many simply rely on the bike's performance to minimise the length of time the overtake takes, with the flipside being that when a car pulls out on them, they don't have many options but to hope it doesn't hurt too much.

Chris

[trashbat]

I can't comment on what would have worked better as I wasn't there, but I think it's worth considering each overtake as an individual overtake (complete with escape plan)

In open road situations I do this, but in this instance I treated the queue as a whole, since it was bunched and therefore there were no interim escape options.

and ensuring that everyone is steady or co-operative

I think it's fair to say that I did not do this, although I was aware of having not done it at the time.

What made you beep the Renault and not the cars behind it?

Planned technique (rather than reacting to anything), and the increased possibility that the Clio or Picasso would move out and go.

[ScoobyChris]

Were the speeds higher, I definitely wouldn't have gone for it, but gut feel was that it was akin to overtaking an artic at 40mph speeds - something I've pulled off in that location plenty of times, though I wouldn't say that made me complacent.

It's a nice analogy in terms of road space needed, but in contrast there are two scenarios to be wary of which are unlikely to be a factor in a single car overtaking an HGV scenario:

a) tractor turns left (so cars behind decide to overtake) or tractor turns right (brown trouser moment! )
b) cars within the queue decide that the overtake is on and go for it

Chris

[trashbat]

I admit that I hadn't considered the tractor turning left. The tractor turning right was always a possibility (as it is for an HGV, by the way, so I disagree a little there) but somewhat mitigated by the fact that the driver can be expected (?) to look for vehicles overtaking.

Whilst we're on the topic, another significant difference is that the tractor may have turned into an unidentifiable entrance that, if it was a proper junction, might have been sufficient deterrent from making the overtake.

[ScoobyChris]

The tractor turning right was always a possibility (as it is for an HGV, by the way, so I disagree a little there) but somewhat mitigated by the fact that the driver can be expected (?) to look for vehicles overtaking.

The tractor driver often won't need to change speed signifcantly to make a turn - the HGV won't be turning at 40mph (if he's one of the few keeping to the speed limit ) so you'll either see his brake lights if you're behind him or complete he overtake quicker as he gets on the brakes before he makes the turn (60mph equates to around 27 m/s) and the lorry is around 18.5m.

Whilst we're on the topic, another significant difference is that the tractor may have turned into an unidentifiable entrance that, if it was a proper junction, might have been sufficient deterrent from making the overtake.

Agree here - holes in hedges or (if the road is wide enough) broken white lines at the edge might mark an entrace, but harder to see the further back you are down the queue unfortunately.

Chris

[Big Err]

From an insurance perspective, I'd be guessing 50/50 liability unless you could prove conclusively that your overtake was safe and the lady drove into you, but I can't see them wanting to fight too hard over it

I'd have thought that the fact that the other driver was in the process of changing lanes when the collision occurred would sway the liability against them? Or could they prove that the overtaking vehicle accelerated into the side of them?

Just one of those occassions where in car cameras would be a bonus.

[michael769]

I'd have thought that the fact that the other driver was in the process of changing lanes when the collision occurred would sway the liability against them? Or could they prove that the overtaking vehicle accelerated into the side of them?

I would have called it as her fault on the basis that she changed lanes when it was not safe to do so.