ADUK Archive

If I were to talk about looking for fewer overtakes on test than at other times, some people might think that that was because on test I would not plan an overtake unless I thought it could safely and comfortably be completed without exceeding the speed limit, and because there would not be sufficient scope for an adequate speed differential after the overtake again within the speed limit. And some people might think that I apply different criteria when not on test.

GJD wrote:

Ralge wrote:So we are probably agreeing, then, that being on a test puts us under pressure to look for the overtake that we might not look for on another day.

I don't think so. At least, I wouldn't put it like that. 'Under pressure' sounds uncomfortable to me, as if I might be expected to look for the overtake that I wouldn't look for on any other day.

Being on test doesn't put me under any pressure to look for any more overtakes than I would on any other day, unless that other day was one when I didn't happen to feel like making best use of my overtaking ability for whatever reason.

"Under pressure" may have been too strong a phrase but I know that my natural driving style is more defensive, stoical rather than progressive - I'm stuck behind a line of cars on rural A17, A47, so what? in this frame of mind, I wouldn't bother to get into an overtaking position and i don't need to find an excuse why I haven't because the information I have already got can't be bettered. In "defensive", I got silver. Switching on to "progressive" got me Gold and a Diploma and through re-tests. Others are more naturally progressive, it's a part of their personality.

To put it straight, if AD is only about full-bore, red-blooded, macho driving and "if you don't do it you're a wuss/silver", I'm sending my badges back. Thankfully, I don't think of AD in that light so I'm holding on to them AND to my work.

Ralge wrote:To put it straight, if AD is only about full-bore, red-blooded, macho driving and "if you don't do it you're a wuss/silver", I'm sending my badges back. Thankfully, I don't think of AD in that light so I'm holding on to them AND to my work.

Surely the point is that you can do it, not that you actually do it all or most the time.

Ralge wrote:

GJD wrote:Being on test doesn't put me under any pressure to look for any more overtakes than I would on any other day, unless that other day was one when I didn't happen to feel like making best use of my overtaking ability for whatever reason.

"Under pressure" may have been too strong a phrase but I know that my natural driving style is more defensive, stoical rather than progressive - I'm stuck behind a line of cars on rural A17, A47, so what? in this frame of mind, I wouldn't bother to get into an overtaking position and i don't need to find an excuse why I haven't because the information I have already got can't be bettered. In "defensive", I got silver. Switching on to "progressive" got me Gold and a Diploma and through re-tests. Others are more naturally progressive, it's a part of their personality.

Interesting, then, that this comparison involves the necessity of exposing oneself to higher risk* to obtain a higher grade . . .

* I doubt there can be many occasions when attempting an overtake is safer than maintaining a reasonable following distance.

Horse wrote:
Interesting, then, that this comparison involves the necessity of exposing oneself to higher risk* to obtain a higher grade . . .

* I doubt there can be many occasions when attempting an overtake is safer than maintaining a reasonable following distance.

If risk is perceived as a problem in this context then the safest option, of course, would be to stay at home and refuse to take the re-test. That would definitely involve the least risk if that is what one is seeking to achieve - one wouldn't even have worry about whether one's "reasonable following distance" was reasonably reasonable.

Horse wrote:

Ralge wrote:In "defensive", I got silver. Switching on to "progressive" got me Gold

Interesting, then, that this comparison involves the necessity of exposing oneself to higher risk* to obtain a higher grade . . .

I think it's more likely that Ralge was more switched on when the higher grades were achieved, and that Ralge finds being switched on for the duration of a RoADAR test fairly uncomfortable so prefers not to do it all that much.

To achieve a RoADAR Gold means subjecting oneself to the assessment of a more experienced driver; I feel more comfortable with their assessments that Ralge didn't drive less safely than for the Silver drives, irrespective of how Ralge prefers to describe the difference.

Horse wrote:Interesting, then, that this comparison involves the necessity of exposing oneself to higher risk* to obtain a higher grade . . .

* I doubt there can be many occasions when attempting an overtake is safer than maintaining a reasonable following distance.

hir wrote: If risk is perceived as a problem in this context then the safest option, of course, would be to stay at home and refuse to take the re-test. That would definitely involve the least risk if that is what one is seeking to achieve - one wouldn't even have worry about whether one's "reasonable following distance" was reasonably reasonable.

Stay at home, really?

What, with a ll the DIY and gardening accidents, burns and scallds from cooking, falling down stairs, slipping in the shower, etc. . . .

Gareth wrote:I think it's more likely that Ralge was more switched on when the higher grades were achieved, and that Ralge finds being switched on for the duration of a RoADAR test fairly uncomfortable so prefers not to do it all that much.

To achieve a RoADAR Gold means subjecting oneself to the assessment of a more experienced driver; I feel more comfortable with their assessments that Ralge didn't drive less safely than for the Silver drives, irrespective of how Ralge prefers to describe the difference.

Well, I can only go by what he posted, which suggested that the 'progressive attitude' alteration was key.

However, I'd be intrigued to hear how overtaking can be safer than holding back. Pray tell

Horse wrote:

Gareth wrote:I think it's more likely that Ralge was more switched on when the higher grades were achieved

I'd be intrigued to hear how overtaking can be safer than holding back. Pray tell

You seem to be creating an argument by taking what Ralge said, applying some spin to it, and making it appear that something was said other than what was written.

Ralge didn't say the number of overtakes was any different, just that the attitude and approach was different. The before attitude was "I'm stuck behind a line of cars on rural A17, A47, so what?" which I think isn't what an examiner would be looking for in a potential Gold candidate.

If I can clarify something - the "before" is now, in reality.
I have been driving to Norwich via A17 an A47 for 35 years. The journey has always taken around 3hrs 20mins choose how ever many vehicles I overtake since there is always another holdup further down the road. That isn't to say that I don't overtake but I see more than a few impatient, go-getting drivers who are prepared to pass a long line of tightly pack vehicles and squeeze in wherever it is that fortune grants them a space.
I trust that this is not seen as clever AD no more than late overtaking of a line of cars presenting themselves on a motorway on-ramp would be.
Whether it is a good (AD) or impatient/reckless move is a matter of judgement of space/time to spare. I am quite happy with the margins I leave for myself and others but recognise that, on occasions, my "not bothered to get anywhere in a hurry" approach to driving (because I have planned in enough time) is defensive rather than progressive.
In re-tests I seek out opportunities to show my preparedness for torquey, zippy, silky smooth, smart progress and look for lines of least resistance but seek to impress the examiner/assessor more with my meticulous attention to (far, middle, near, rear and sides) detail in a full, test-long instructional commentary. This, for me, is far more important than progress alone and when I am examining, I look for the light and shade of pace driven by excellent hazard perception.
This approach seems to work.

Gareth wrote:You seem to be creating an argument by taking what Ralge said, applying some spin to it, and making it appear that something was said other than what was written.

OK, fair enough.

Let's take Ralge out of the equation and reduce it to a simple question:

Is it safer to overtake, or remain in a stream of traffic. (All things being equal)

Simple question, surely?

Horse wrote:

Gareth wrote:You seem to be creating an argument by taking what Ralge said, applying some spin to it, and making it appear that something was said other than what was written.

OK, fair enough.

Let's take Ralge out of the equation and reduce it to a simple question:

Is it safer to overtake, or remain in a stream of traffic. (All things being equal)

Simple question, surely?

It depends.

Dom

dombooth wrote:

Horse wrote: Let's take Ralge out of the equation and reduce it to a simple question:

Is it safer to overtake, or remain in a stream of traffic. (All things being equal)

Simple question, surely?

It depends.

Dom

On . . . ?


Serious answer is that I can only think of one scenario where overtaking might reduce risk (and, even then, possibly as a temporary solution or delay). I'd be interested to hear what other examples people could suggest. If there aren't any more, isn't that something to raise concern . . . ?

Horse wrote:Serious answer is that I can only think of one scenario where overtaking might reduce risk (and, even then, possibly as a temporary solution or delay). I'd be interested to hear what other examples people could suggest. If there aren't any more, isn't that something to raise concern . . . ?

One example from I think my first RoSPA test - following a cyclist in a DWL system. I claimed the cyclist was doing <10mph, therefore when a safe opportunity arose I was able to claim an exemption and cross the DWLs to overtake. In the debrief the examiner said it was exactly the right thing to do, and holding back may have lead to impatience from other motorists behind who could then have chosen to overtake both us and the cyclist in an unsafe manner.

Horse wrote:

dombooth wrote:

Horse wrote: Let's take Ralge out of the equation and reduce it to a simple question:

Is it safer to overtake, or remain in a stream of traffic. (All things being equal)

Simple question, surely?

It depends.

Dom

On . . . ?


Serious answer is that I can only think of one scenario where overtaking might reduce risk (and, even then, possibly as a temporary solution or delay). I'd be interested to hear what other examples people could suggest. If there aren't any more, isn't that something to raise concern . . . ?

If the driver behind is texting / on his phone I'd rather not be in front of them.

Dom

Horse wrote:Serious answer is that I can only think of one scenario where overtaking might reduce risk (and, even then, possibly as a temporary solution or delay).

The car in front is *only* fitted with rear-facing machine guns.