Pull push steering - how to do it properly

[Gareth]

I can't see how it's unsettling to pull the steering wheel down in one smooth motion with one hand and mirror the action, but not gripping, with the other.

If there are many repeated small adjustments and not all the hand movements relative to the wheel position are carried out delicately then the car can easily be unsettled. When you talk about pulling down with one smooth motion, it's maybe half an inch to a couple of inches for typical small deflections of steering input.

Pull-push comes into it's own when large deflections are needed, when the push part of the process also comes into play.

The problem with using fixed grip for anything other than small adjustments is it's too easy end up with one hand at 12 o'clock and the other at 6 o'clock with nowhere to go.

Not a huge problem if that's the maximum deflection required, although through preference I'd generally have transitioned to pull-push before that point. Just because a technique has limitations doesn't mean you should discard it for all situations.

Of course you can drop the 12 o'clock hand to meet up with the 6 o'clock and pick up with pull-push - but why not just do that in the first place?

Because of the benefits that accrue from using a technique that works better in various situations, specifically, when less steering is required.

One benefit not previously mentioned in this thread is that using a fixed grip helps when drivers are trying to develop sensitivity to what is happening at the wheels. Lack of smoothness though repeatedly releasing and re-gripping the wheel has already been covered, but extra smoothness may be found by feeling how the car responds to steering wheel inputs and then avoiding coarse inputs.

Following on from Astraist's comments I should mention that I'd only advocate using 9-3 if fixed grip is being used part of the time. A 10-2 grip is pants for fixed grip.


ETA: typos and clarifications.

[jcochrane]

I'd argue that they're not doing it properly. I can't see how it's unsettling to pull the steering wheel down in one smooth motion with one hand and mirror the action, but not gripping, with the other.

The problem with using fixed grip for anything other than small adjustments is it's too easy end up with one hand at 12 o'clock and the other at 6 o'clock with nowhere to go. Of course you can drop the 12 o'clock hand to meet up with the 6 o'clock and pick up with pull-push - but why not just do that in the first place?

You make it sound as if your level of sensitivity to car feedback is masking the effectiveness of fixed input. This may well be the case which draws you to conclude that there is little benefit to be gained .

Your comments in the second paragraph are normally only encountered through lack of practice and an inability to correctly obtain all information available or poor decisions making on the approach to bends. i.e. a reflection that more work needs to be done.

As I mentioned above not everyone necessarily has sufficient sensitivity or interest to appreciate the advantages of this and many other techniques not covered by basic instruction to IAM or ROSPA level. For those folk it would be a waste of time learning how to do them but there is still no reason why they should not be competent and safe drivers despite that.

[hir]

I'd argue that they're not doing it properly. I can't see how it's unsettling to pull the steering wheel down in one smooth motion with one hand and mirror the action, but not gripping, with the other.

Why are you advocating steering with just one hand gripping the steering wheel in all situations and at all speeds? Surely one has more control over the steering wheel by using both hands(ie. fixed input) to hold the wheel . I would advocate fixed input as the default steering technique as it gives total control [both hands holding the steering wheel], smooth and accurate steering. Pull-push should be reserved for slow speed manoeuvres [up to (say) 20mph]where one handed steering isn't such a critical issue.

[Silk]

I'd argue that they're not doing it properly. I can't see how it's unsettling to pull the steering wheel down in one smooth motion with one hand and mirror the action, but not gripping, with the other.

Why are you advocating steering with just one hand gripping the steering wheel in all situations and at all speeds? Surely one has more control over the steering wheel by using both hands(ie. fixed input) to hold the wheel . I would advocate fixed input as the default steering technique as it gives total control [both hands holding the steering wheel], smooth and accurate steering. Pull-push should be reserved for slow speed manoeuvres [up to (say) 20mph]where one handed steering isn't such a critical issue.

All this thread goes to prove is that driving isn't a correspondence course.

I'd argue that it's better all round to have both hands at a similar level at all times. With pull push, you can set the steering by pulling one hand down and then gripping the steering wheel with both hands. That way, both hands are level and your body is straight. It also helps with posture. With the amount of driving I do, that's as important as anything else.

I would only use fixed input for up to maybe 10 to 15 degrees of rotation and then I'd simply drop the higher hand to match the lower one and grip with both hands once the steering is set, using small amounts of fixed input for minor corrections.

When it comes to all the finer points of feedback and handling, I accept I'm probably lacking somewhat. But, to be honest, I'm not really interested in all that stuff. If I was, I'd have done something about it by now.

[GJD]

I'd argue that it's better all round to have both hands at a similar level at all times. With pull push, you can set the steering by pulling one hand down and then gripping the steering wheel with both hands.

Am I picturing that right? Thinking of a right hand bend that needs 45 degrees of steering input for example...

Using fixed grip (and starting from 9-3) would have the left hand between 10 and 11 and the right hand between 4 and 5. What you describe (again assuming 9-3 is the starting point) sounds like the right hand between 4 and 5 still, but the left hand between 7 and 8. Is that right? I don't think I've come across that before.

[jcochrane]

That way, both hands are level and your body is straight. It also helps with posture. With the amount of driving I do, that's as important as anything else.

I'm slightly puzzled by this. If the driver is properly set up with seat/steering wheel position this would not happen. If properly set up then the body would remain stable and balanced whilst allowing the hands to move freely around the steering wheel. Not that I do this, but even fixed input up to half a turn. I often seen fixed input and pull push (where the hand goes past 12 o'clock) that upsets the drivers balance requiring them to slightly pull on the steering wheel or lean ever so slightly forward to raise themselves from the back of the seat in order to maintain their reach to the wheel. This is clearly wrong and they need to revisit their driving position. The body should be fully supported by the seat at all times whilst allowing full free movement of the hands.
In emergency, evasive actions, this correct positioning is vital.

[Gareth]

... upsets the drivers balance requiring them to slightly pull on the steering wheel or lean ever so slightly forward to raise themselves from the back of the seat in order to maintain their reach to the wheel. This is clearly wrong and they need to revisit their driving position. The body should be fully supported by the seat at all times whilst allowing full free movement of the hands.

This normally happens where a driver adjusts the seat position so it is more like an armchair than an office chair. When I see this I suggest that the activity of driving is more like work than leisure, and the position should be adjusted accordingly.

[fungus]

I generally hold the wheel at 9 & 3 o clock and use fixed grip up to 12 o clock. If I get caught out, I just revert to pull push. If only using fixed grip for 10-15 degrees then the steering must be rushed and jerky, a bit like some learners where they do not pull the wheel fully down. If I need more steering when emerging from a junction that's tight, I sometimes start with the right hand at 9 o clock for a right turn, and 3 o clock for a left turn. I use the same technique for doing three point turns etc. I know that this is not a recognised technique with the IAM or Roaspa, but it does allow a lot of steering to be put on quickly.

[fungus]

... upsets the drivers balance requiring them to slightly pull on the steering wheel or lean ever so slightly forward to raise themselves from the back of the seat in order to maintain their reach to the wheel. This is clearly wrong and they need to revisit their driving position. The body should be fully supported by the seat at all times whilst allowing full free movement of the hands.

This normally happens where a driver adjusts the seat position so it is more like an armchair than an office chair. When I see this I suggest that the activity of driving is more like work than leisure, and the position should be adjusted accordingly.

I remember reading an article in a driving instructor magazine a few years ago that was written by a physiotherapist. She suggested that the best angle for the back of the seat was about 110 degrees to give the best lumbar support, although I would imagine that it would vary a little from driver to driver.

[Silk]

that would give our Chief Observer palpitations! (he likes pull/push for anything more than about 20 degrees).

You've mistakenly added a zero.

[Silk]

I'd argue that it's better all round to have both hands at a similar level at all times. With pull push, you can set the steering by pulling one hand down and then gripping the steering wheel with both hands.

Am I picturing that right? Thinking of a right hand bend that needs 45 degrees of steering input for example...

Using fixed grip (and starting from 9-3) would have the left hand between 10 and 11 and the right hand between 4 and 5. What you describe (again assuming 9-3 is the starting point) sounds like the right hand between 4 and 5 still, but the left hand between 7 and 8. Is that right? I don't think I've come across that before.

I think I'm slowly losing the will to live.

[WhoseGeneration]

All this thread goes to prove is that driving isn't a correspondence course.

Ain't that the truth, it's a practical performance, to be demonstrated.

[TripleS]

All this thread goes to prove is that driving isn't a correspondence course.

Ain't that the truth, it's a practical performance, to be demonstrated.

Yes, exactly: preferably using a variety of techniques that can be relied upon to deal easily and safely with the full range of situations we are likely to encounter. Whether or not these techniques match up to the official advanced driving specification is another matter, about which I care little.

I prefer to let my methods emerge naturally and be automatically adjusted according to changing situations. What I do not do is look at the next bend, for example, and consciously think about whether I ought to be using pull-push or fixed grip or some other steering method. It'll just happen when I get there; and it might be something that isn't in 'the book' anyhow! It never seems to present any problem, so I regard this as satisfactory.

[ScoobyChris]

- that would give our Chief Observer palpitations! (he likes pull/push for anything more than about 20 degrees).

And sadly it's people like him who are responsible for the perception of the IAM "shuffle"

Chris

[Silk]

- that would give our Chief Observer palpitations! (he likes pull/push for anything more than about 20 degrees).

And sadly it's people like him who are responsible for the perception of the IAM "shuffle"

Chris

I don't know where this "shuffle" thing comes from. The gentleman in question is certainly evangelical about pull-push as with most things associated with traditional Advanced Driving. But he is very good at it. Most people who try it are not. The inability to do it properly is what results in "shuffle".

I'm sure I've said this before, but the best drivers I've had the pleasure to be driven by have, by and large, stuck to the IAM/Roadcraft method. When I see people demonstrate "alternatives", it always seems to fall apart.