Test criteria IAM.

[MGF]

A desire to be 'accepted' by the Club might motivate a candidate to put the necessary time, effort and money into improving his driving and to that extent a desire to be accepted might help to improve one's driving.

But if wanting to be a member of HPC is, simply, the consequence of wanting to be a better driver anyone wanting to be a better driver would want to be a member of HPC. I think that is far from correct.

The reason I suggest there may not be dozens of capable coaches is that most instructors do not have experience of instructing to a very high level of driving.

[jcochrane]

Reading some comments from HPC candidates it appears to me that people confuse wanting to improve their driving with wanting to be 'accepted' into the Club.

The course is simply there to get you into the Club notwithstanding the coaching is beneficial in itself.

You state this as a fact, which completely amazes me.

It is a current reality.

When I took the course the Club did not exist. You see my problem? How can you take a "course that is simply there to get you into the Club" when the Club does not exist?

My truth is at variance to yours. So which of us is telling the truth?

Your "statement of fact" implies that those meetings I had with two others who had completed the course to share our dreams as to how we could bring about the creation of a real active club (HPC) are no more than the figment of imagination of an old man. This is insulting and a retraction and apology are due.

To be strictly accurate The High Performance Course has not existed for a number of years.
Using the term 'course' today is perhaps slightly misleading and a hang up from the days of The High Performance Course. The position today is that should you choose to go to one of the appointed Gatekeepers for training to improve your driving they will, like any other instructor, discuss with you what you what to get out of the training. If you say that your goal is to get to the standard of HPC entry (and that does not have to be what you want to achieve) then the instructor will structure the training and assess your performance against that standard.

Ignoring the predictable (although not from you) arrogant demand for an apology, now we are back onto the relevant point. That is the current 2.5 day course.

Arrogant. I'm sure others will make their own minds up as to which of us is the better informed in this.

[jcochrane]

If you want to improve your driving, book some time with a few professional coaches and maybe stick with the one you think works best for you. But don't limit yourself to the two HPC gatekeepers unless your goal is membership of the Club. That appears to me to be axiomatic.

On this we can agree but I would add don't let any prejudice you may share with MGF towards HPC stop you putting their Gatekeepers on your list. To repeat what I have already said they will discuss with you your objectives and coach towards those ends. You DO NOT have to have to have HPC as an objective. There is no HPC style as such so you will not be forced into an HPC mold if that is a concern. By keeping an open mind you may find that one of the two is just the coach your looking for. Cutting of your nose to spite your face could mean missing the opportunity of finding the right coach for you.

[Silk]

But if wanting to be a member of HPC is, simply, the consequence of wanting to be a better driver anyone wanting to be a better driver would want to be a member of HPC. I think that is far from correct.

That really sums up my problem with HPC (at least how it's represented by some on this forum). There seems to be an assumption that anyone who doesn't wish to join HPC isn't interested in improving their driving beyond a certain level. That comes across as arrogant, even if it isn't intentional.

[zadocbrown]

But if wanting to be a member of HPC is, simply, the consequence of wanting to be a better driver anyone wanting to be a better driver would want to be a member of HPC. I think that is far from correct.

That really sums up my problem with HPC (at least how it's represented by some on this forum). There seems to be an assumption that anyone who doesn't wish to join HPC isn't interested in improving their driving beyond a certain level. That comes across as arrogant, even if it isn't intentional.

Really? That would be a ridiculous assertion and I can't recall anyone making it.

Joining HPC is one of many routes to improving your driving and who would deny it? If you are perceived as not interested in going beyond a certain level, I doubt it is purely because you don't want to join HPC.

Nobody is saying that wanting to join HPC is "only" a consequence of desire to improve one's driving. There are clearly other factors too. But I'm sure a desire to strive for the highest level of driving would be high on the list, if not at the top of it.

[MGF]

...Arrogant. I'm sure others will make their own minds up as to which of us is the better informed in this.

The myth that contributors from HPC seek to create is that "nobody understands us". Anybody daring to comment in any way that does not meet with their approval is labelled as "misinformed" and "prejudiced". This labeling is then followed by a demand for an apology. Indeed stefan einz has gone as far as to tell me he has requested that the mods temporarily ban me so I can "reflect" on my comments.

It is these demands that are arrogant.

[MGF]

...Joining HPC is one of many routes to improving your driving and who would deny it?.

Joining HPC is not about improving you driving. Joining HPC is merely about the benefits of Club membership.

Improving your driving comes from professional coaching which is more widely available than the through the gatekeepers of HPC. Indeed, members of HPC use coaches other than the gatekeepers to improve their driving.

I agree with Silk insofar that HPC does appear to be misrepresented (at least as much from without than within) as an option for improving one's driving rather than a Club with benefits that belonging to the Club might offer its members.

[jcochrane]

...Arrogant. I'm sure others will make their own minds up as to which of us is the better informed in this.

The myth that contributors from HPC seek to create is that "nobody understands us". Anybody daring to comment in any way that does not meet with their approval is labelled as "misinformed" and "prejudiced". This labeling is then followed by a demand for an apology. Indeed stefan einz has gone as far as to tell me he has requested that the mods temporarily ban me so I can "reflect" on my comments.

It is these demands that are arrogant.

Your comments do not relate to my post but your continued implication that I am not telling the truth when recounting from my personal experience and that you do not see the need to aplogise for this fact are noted.
How come you know so much about what has happened in my life?

[MrToad]

Improving your driving comes from professional coaching which is more widely available than the through the gatekeepers of HPC.

That's one way, but certainly not the way the majority of people improve their driving. IAM and RoSPA for example, train thousands each year with a largely volunteer staff. I'd also say that ADUK days are quite effective at improving driving, and not many of us are professionals in the field.

I agree with Silk insofar that HPC does appear to be misrepresented (at least as much from without than within) as an option for improving one's driving rather than a Club with benefits that belonging to the Club might offer its members.

Apart from an expensive insurance scheme and a cheap magazine, what benefits are you thinking of?

If I ever get round to joining, the main benefit I'm anticipating is free access to people that I can learn from. I don't imagine many of these will be professional coaches - just experienced, thinking drivers.

[jcochrane]

If I ever get round to joining, the main benefit I'm anticipating is free access to people that I can learn from. I don't imagine many of these will be professional coaches - just experienced, thinking drivers.

Tony, you may be surprised but there are members who are professional coaches, apart from the Gatekeepers.

[Gareth]

Joining HPC is not about improving you driving. Joining HPC is merely about the benefits of Club membership.

The most significant benefit of club membership for me has been that my driving continued to improve.

The only other benefits that come to mind are subordinate:

• I have been introduced to others who are similarly fanatical about driving well
• I am able to use a car insurance scheme that provides comprehensive cover when other members are driving my car

The first is a natural consequence of the existence of the club and its entry requirements, while the second is merely something that makes it easier to share my car with others.

I see the entry requirements as tending to discourage those who aren't fanatical enough to invest in professional coaching, so in that sense it is about improving a person's driving, (although as I have said often there are many alternatives if one is willing to spend money on professional coaching, and indeed I encourage people to give them serious consideration).

I don't think there are any other benefits that aren't related to driving, or discussing aspects of driving, with other members.

It is possible that some people join the club for other reasons, but I'm not sure what they would be. What I can say is that if people aren't fanatical about driving well, aren't willing to take part in driving events organised by other members, and don't go driving with other members, then they won't get significant benefit from club membership.

I don't know of any other group for those who are fanatical about driving well. Certainly Pistonheads doesn't meet that requirement, since it is mostly a talking shop, and anyway based around a common interest in cars rather than driving.

The nearest similar groupings in terms of enthusiasm are some of the motorcycle clubs - almost no others are willing to travel long distances to meet up and drive (ride) with others.

You might think that ADUK fills the need, but the reality is that without support from HPC members posting on the forum, arranging and taking part in informal days, it would be very different beast - for example, 12 of the 24 top posters are or have been club members, and club members are normally a fair proportion of those taking part in the driving days.

[Gareth]

Go back 10 years and people would visit a gatekeeper because of his reputation as a coach rather than the potential to grant a recommendation for entry to the Club.

Certainly that was the case for me 13 years ago, although the reputation didn't mean anything to me ... all I had to go on was the coach's advertising blurb. No-one available to tell me anything about the courses he provided, and no internet visibility of the club. I hadn't been able to find anything about alternative coaches, even if they existed.

When people here or elsewhere ask for advice about taking a course towards club membership I tend to think they're not really interested enough in doing so for the sake of improving their driving, because if they were they would stop pissing about, take that leap of faith and spend the money.

the desire for HPC membership, by which I mean people actually talking about it and publicly stating their intentions thus, is growing far more than I can ever remember.

However much it feels to me like the tail wagging the dog I guess I have to accept it as being the inevitable consequence of the internet age.

I sometimes wonder how many of those who take issue with extent (length, cost) of qualifying courses for club membership are willing to put their money where their mouth is and spend a similar amount with other professional coaches who teach driving at a similarly high level. It would be very interesting if any here have done that, and perhaps their reasons for doing so.

[jont]

You might think that ADUK fills the need, but the reality is that without support from HPC members posting on the forum, arranging and taking part in informal days, it would be very different beast - for example, 12 of the 24 top posters are or have been club members, and club members are normally a fair proportion of those taking part in the driving days.

I wonder what those numbers would have been in say 2007/2008. It's perhaps an interesting sign of how many ADUK day regulars have decided that it is worth seeking out further training and joined HPC as a result. However I'd certainly acknowledge that without some seed HPC members helping in the early ADUK days, it's unlikely there would be such a large overlap now.

[Gareth]

I wonder what those numbers would have been in say 2007/2008.

It's hard to say, but the first ADUK day in March 2007 has 4 HPC members out of possibly 15 participants, the second that month had 5 out of 10 participants, and the one in September 2008 had 6 out of 14. I think of the current 24 top posters 8 were already HPC members in the time-frame you mention. Other HPC members were posting at that time but have since stopped taking part in online discussions here.

[Gareth]

There are plenty of others to choose from and personally my first choice would not be either of these two.

Who would be your first choice and why?

In the past I have recommended Mark Kendrick, John Cave and John Lyon and would be happy to do so again. I would also strongly recommend Mark Robins.

That was my point but stefan einz claims the driving is not being assessed over two days. If that is the case then the course would have value in itself. Maintaining a standard over two days, or even one day is significantly more challenging than 90 minutes.

I'm not sure it is reasonable to split coaching from assessment since the coach is continually assessing the candidate throughout the course, identifying weaknesses and targeting coaching in response. Also, some aspects of driving may only become apparent after an extended time under intense pressure of the learning situation, such as the ability to maintain concentration, to always drive safely, to always drive within one's capabilities, to always display a courteous attitude to other road users, to be unerringly mechanically sympathetic to the vehicle, and so on.