ESP

[zadocbrown]

Although I stand behind my arguments for the benefits of ESP I am totally against the Orwellian legislation that makes it compulsory for them to be fitted.

Indeed, and in spite of the claims from the manufacturers that it's for safety only, I'm sure there will be certain drivers out there who will want to "explore" it.

I don't see any evidence of people deliberately provoking esp. It can usually be turned off...

[trashbat]

Some very strange comments in this thread!

As I understand it, ESP affords you a thin margin of extra recovery when things are going wrong, provided certain factors are within range - the comment about tyre pressures etc being a good example.

Why or indeed how you would go about provoking it without expecting to go beyond its safety net is beyond me.

I also don't believe that anyone regularly induces it, and even less that they are somehow empowered to do this because it's available to them, other than by virtue of not being killed the first time.

FWIW on my car you can't turn it off - you can turn off ASR (anti-slip) but not VDC (stability control).

[JamesAllport]

<tangent> If I recall correctly the advice on some top end Lotus cars is to put the stability/traction control into race mode, do a couple of laps to let it "learn" the circuit and then rely on it to achieve a faster lap than most drivers would with the system switched off. <tangent>

[martine]

Why or indeed how you would go about provoking it without expecting to go beyond its safety net is beyond me.

I deliberately triggered mine when I first got the car to see what it would do. Went into a large wet roundabout with no one else around and dabbed the throttle too much. I thought it was important to know. I always leave it switched on as I was very impressed by my little play and also the various youtube videos demonstrating it. If Tiff Nedell supports ESP then that's good enough for me.

[Grahar]

Very simply, ESP can do something that even the most skilled driver can't; brake individual wheels.

ESP can deliver a split second and dynamic response (one that varies instantaneously) from the car (yaw control) that a driver even with a very high level of car control does not have the physical means to do. Add a lesser skilled driver, high speed, the 'unexpectedness' of an emergency and a less than perfect road surface and it's benefit increases further.

[Silk]

Why or indeed how you would go about provoking it without expecting to go beyond its safety net is beyond me.

I deliberately triggered mine when I first got the car to see what it would do. Went into a large wet roundabout with no one else around and dabbed the throttle too much. I thought it was important to know. I always leave it switched on as I was very impressed by my little play and also the various youtube videos demonstrating it. If Tiff Nedell supports ESP then that's good enough for me.

A few years back, they were doing demonstrations on the Mall Cribbs Causeway car park. They hosed down a section and a driver drove you down it as fast as he dared and turned really sharply at the end. Without ESP, the car went into massive under steer but the driver managed to keep it under control. When it was enabled, the car followed the line of the steering and didn't lose grip - of course, I only had the word of the driver that he drove exactly the same way each time!

To be honest, I was more impressed with how hard the car had to be pushed before it lost control without ESP and I came away thinking that the boy racers are only going to use ESP in order to go faster, even though the demonstrator was adamant that wasn't the purpose - hmm.

[watts93]

XDS
Lets you enjoy sporty driving safely

How does it work?
In moments of fast cornering XDS gives out exactly the right amount of power, providing pressure on the inside wheel to prevent wheel spinning. The result is better traction and a reduction of any tendency to under steer.

You'll experience a more agile, precise and calm driving performance with better traction out of bends. In other words, you can enjoy sporty driving in your Volkswagen, knowing you have a reassuringly higher level of safety.
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/ ... ystems/xds

I came away thinking that the boy racers are only going to use ESP in order to go faster, even though the demonstrator was adamant that wasn't the purpose - hmm.

Definitely not the purpose of ESP... So they just give it a different name .

[Grahar]

Why or indeed how you would go about provoking it without expecting to go beyond its safety net is beyond me.

I deliberately triggered mine when I first got the car to see what it would do. Went into a large wet roundabout with no one else around and dabbed the throttle too much. I thought it was important to know. I always leave it switched on as I was very impressed by my little play and also the various youtube videos demonstrating it. If Tiff Nedell supports ESP then that's good enough for me.

A few years back, they were doing demonstrations on the Mall Cribbs Causeway car park. They hosed down a section and a driver drove you down it as fast as he dared and turned really sharply at the end. Without ESP, the car went into massive under steer but the driver managed to keep it under control. When it was enabled, the car followed the line of the steering and didn't lose grip - of course, I only had the word of the driver that he drove exactly the same way each time!

To be honest, I was more impressed with how hard the car had to be pushed before it lost control without ESP and I came away thinking that the boy racers are only going to use ESP in order to go faster, even though the demonstrator was adamant that wasn't the purpose - hmm.

I agree that it is possible that some boy racers in a cars with ESP may throw caution to the wind a bit more and raise their entry speeds to corners (knowing the sytem will sort the balance out), but you musn't let that cloud your judgement as to how useful ESP is. The vast majority of the public don't throw their cars around like that and wouldn't intentionally trigger the ESP.

Given the example you gave, surely you must except that ESP is hugely beneficial when it comes to the vast majority of the driving public if they find themselves in an emergency situation?

In the example you gave, the run with the ESP switched off would have most likely ended in a collision, whereas the ESP 'on' run resulted in the car tracking true to the steering input?

[Grahar]

Cancel the last '?' at the end of my previous post!

[Silk]

In the example you gave, the run with the ESP switched off would have most likely ended in a collision, whereas the ESP 'on' run resulted in the car tracking true to the steering input?

Taking the turn more slowly would have achieved the same result.

[Astraist]

Just "taking the turn more slowly?" There are many safety procautions that can be taken to negotiate hazards like bends. Must we only take one measure which we deem sufficient? or should we take all of them to increase the safety margins?

With the example of bends, we can take the turn more slowly,but we can also: slow down even more, maintain constant throttle in the bend, apply the steering accurately and smoothly, maintain the car's tyres and dampers for better grip, take a more efficient cornering line AND have ESP.

In this context, both ABS and ESP, as well as other active safety systems, can be seen as an additional and final safety "net". Besides that. a driver can be pushed into situations where, in spite of good observational skills, an emergency manuever will be required, normally due to the behavior of another road user.

There can very well be instances where, in spite of maintaining a safe following distance or a speed in which you can stop within the distance you see to be clear - will provide insufficient. In these situation, emergency braking will be required, but a steering input will also be necessary. This the justification for the existance of ABS and, at high speeds and on slippery surfaces - for ESP also.

This can happen if the car ahead stops and than pulls BACK, or if it brakes but than hits the car ahead, leading to a sudden halt, or if cargo is dropped off of the back of a lorry. It can also happen should avoiding oncoming traffic become necessary, especially in a bend.

[Grahar]

I couldn't agree more with Astraist. Very well put. We don't live in a perfect world where every driver drives perfectly.

It is illogical, Silk, to suggest (even if every motorist was a skilled advanced driver) that ESP would not be beneficial in an emergency. Even if every single driver drove perfectly. Tyres still blow out, deer still run across, roads, etc. etc.

[Silk]

I couldn't agree more with Astraist. Very well put. We don't live in a perfect world where every driver drives perfectly.

It is illogical, Silk, to suggest (even if every motorist was a skilled advanced driver) that ESP would not be beneficial in an emergency. Even if every single driver drove perfectly. Tyres still blow out, deer still run across, roads, etc. etc.

I've never suggested anything of the sort. I wish people would pay attention.

[Grahar]

Here are two of your quotes (in bold) on this forum, Silk, both in which you describe ESP being 'unnecessary' and 'irrelevant'.

'My current car has ESP as standard but I'd have saved the money if I'd had the option. It's completely unnecessary, IMO.'

'I'm sure there may be some evidence statistically that ESP mitigates the effects of bad driving when it comes to paying out on claims, but it's irrelevant if you don't crash.'

If it is 'unnecessary' for you, then are you claiming that you will never be involved in an emergency where ESP might be useful?

If it is 'irrelevant if you don't crash', how can you be so sure that you will never be involved in an accident? Furthermore, is it your view then, that ESP is only useful if you do crash? What about emergencies where ESP helps you with an avoidance maneuver and then you don't crash?!

[TripleS]

Am I right in thinking ESP is going to be compulsory on new cars (in the EU) very soon?

Yes - from October 2014.

Pity we can't install it more effectively in drivers.