Mirrors... what again?!

[Kimosabe]

I could use a little help with this.

I'm still trying to find justification for checking my mirrors as much as I now do, as a result of IAM/RoADAR training. Is it possible to check the mirrors too much? I'm not finding any relevant information from checking my mirrors as much as I now do and it's bugging me. It's bugging me because I will soon apply for my RoADAR test and this is about the only thing my current RoADAR observer can find to regularly criticise about my driving. Sometimes i'm doing it but not saying it too...

To be clear, it's not that i'm not checking my mirrors when I feel it's relevant or that I never used to look in my mirrors prior to beginning AD, just that i'm now checking them all even when I feel it's irrelevant and ... what I find is that the information i'm gaining is irrelevant to me. What is it that i'm supposed to be looking out for that I haven't already seen? I'm not saying that checking mirrors is irrelevant, i'm questioning the rate at which I check mine and i'd like to know what you do.

Right now this means that i'm still training myself to check my mirrors (all three of them guys! ) because i've been told that the examiner will want to see me doing it this much and not because I have found any real-world justification for it and that seems pretty barmy to me. I regularly review my car cam footage of me giving 'commentary' while out on my daily practice drives and I keep repeatedly saying things like "still three behind" or "still nothing behind" every time I see a junction, pass a junction, road sign, enter a new road etc... "the car behind just turned off" .... but so what?! So what if the car behind just turned off? So what if there's now five behind and not three? I find no value in knowing this. It feels like complete overkill to do this as much as I do, unless i'm in urban traffic but then i'd regularly check my mirrors when I felt I needed to anyway.

"Approaching an NSL, mirrors, one behind" and? I'm accelerating out of say, a 40 and upto 60 (if it's safe etc) as I pass the NSL sign and there's still a car driver behind who is probably (perhaps hopefully) wondering why the car infront suddenly shot off.... sorry, made unexpectedly good progress... and? What do I now know that is of any importance?

As you may have gathered, I like to do things for good reason and not just because someone says it needs to be done. Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've got a 2nd opinion RoADAR drive coming up and I really want to nail everything before I put in for my test. Your help would be gratefully received.

If anyone fancies coming out to pick holes in my driving, i'm very willing to do this. PM me if you are.

There. I think I said that enough times Thanks folks.

[martine]

I suppose it is possible to spend too much time looking backward to the detriment of looking forward but regular, frequent updates of what's behind are beneficial. Things change and you need to know what's immediately behind and what's approaching from further back (high-speed motorcycle, emergency vehicle, Corsa etc).

In your example as I'm sure you're aware, before accelerating in a new speed limit, you need to know the chap behind isn't already committed to an overtake.

Mirror updates are good - 99 times out of 100 it won't have changed from the last time you looked but until you look you won't know.

[JamesAllport]

Most people's mirror use is woeful. They make huge assumptions all the time and change course on the back of them.

Controversy time: if you really don't think what you're being asked to do is beneficial, then don't do it. If your outcome is as good with your existing mirror disciplines as it would be with what you perceive to be overdoing it then the test result should be the same either way. I speak as someone who's taken eight RoADAR tests with seven different examiners.

If there's no difference in outcome, you're abandoning your credo of form follows function for the sake of badge collecting aren't you? That might be fine but I think it should be a conscious choice.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Mirrors. All mirrors should be used effectively throughout your journey. You should

• use your mirrors frequently so that you always know what is behind and to each side of you
• use them in good time before you signal or change direction or speed
• be aware that mirrors do not cover all areas and there will be blind spots.

You will need to look round and check.

Remember: Mirrors – Signal – Manoeuvre

That's your guide.

A useful approach to the "all 3 mirrors" thing is "mirrors should be used in pairs". You seldom need to check all 3 at once. Times when you do might be in lanes of heavy traffic, looking for two-wheeled road users, or when reversing, etc. Two is often a better compromise - offside and centre on r/h bends for example and vice-versa.

I have been told off in the past for too much mirror use (admittedly by a person with quite different ideas from strict Roadcraft, but with very good credentials).

If you're doing it so much that it is detracting from your forward observations then you should cut it back. However, the second example you gave is one that really does require a mirror check. Many people, frustrated by your adherence to lower speed limits, may think of overtaking you as you come to an NSL area. You have two choices here - pedal to the metal anyway, or ease off and let them past. In either case you need to be aware of their intentions. Just assuming they will dwindle to a dot in the mirror is not always valid. Of course, having been attentive to their behaviour for the preceding section, you will probably be able to make an educated guess, but that shouldn't stop you looking.

[Gareth]

i'm now checking them all even when I feel it's irrelevant

Only check the relevant mirror(s). If you intend deviating to the right then a slightly earlier centre mirror check gives you the general picture, and what you see in your right mirror and when you do the right shoulder check provides confirmation that it is safe to continue.

What is it that i'm supposed to be looking out for that I haven't already seen?

The ideal would be to check frequently enough so that you aren't surprised by something that has the potential to affect your safety.

I keep repeatedly saying things like "still three behind" or "still nothing behind" every time I see a junction, pass a junction, road sign, enter a new road etc... "the car behind just turned off" .... but so what?!

Only report things that may potentially affect your safety - good observation is about prioritising, and commentary ought to reflect this. No point in mentioning non-issues.

"Approaching an NSL, mirrors, one behind"

Saying "mirrors" is a waste of breath, and time; "one behind" implies a mirror check has taken place, as does "clear behind", if you feel you need to say it.

[7db]

It's a good habit to check mirrors every time you change course or speed. On test it's good to do this with a head movement - even if an eye-flick is enough - give your examiner something to tick.

How often you check them beyond that is really a feel for flow and relative traffic. How much is the traffic behind part of your decision making? Can a bike sneak up on you? Are you relaxed enough in your road position and drive to be able to allow your vision to roam forwards and backwards?

[zadocbrown]

99% of the time there is little benefit in checking your mirrors. However we still do it for the 1% of times when it yields crucial information. We have to check often enough to be sure that we will never not check when we need to. It needs to be frequent enough to always be ahead of a developing situation, and so habitual that you can't forget when the going gets tough. I think this is a much tougher ask than most people appreciate.

Yes, most of the time nothing changes between mirror checks - but when it does change it can do so with surprising speed. Always think of that fast motorbike...

I think in general, to say that sometimes you don't need to check is a slippery slope.

[Ralge]

Moving my response over from the other thread ...

Different observers/examiners place different emphasis on mirror use, clearly.
On my last re-test, my RoSPA examiner actually complimented me for not "living in my mirrors" - clearly he was of the view that some drivers spend too much time looking there to the detriment of forward observations.
There has to be a balance and I look for it myself in my candidates on a RoAdTest. For one thing, I never mention the word "mirror" in my commentary, preferring instead to demonstrate that I am aware of everything around me that could cause me a problem as I plan to make my way through/past hazards (= anything that may cause me to change speed, steer or signal).

To answer one question of yours, when planning to accelerate out of one speed limit to another, I am more than interested to know that following traffic is not planning to out-accelerate me and is therefore not a threat.

[martine]

...To answer one question of yours, when planning to accelerate out of one speed limit to another, I am more than interested to know that following traffic is not planning to out-accelerate me and is therefore not a threat.

Yes and that opens up another debate...I have a fairly quick car which will out accelerate most but if someone in a 'normal' car was already off-side I'd probably let the go past rather than 'embarrass' them by flooring it and leaving them in a trail of dust. My argument is it might be seen to be aggressive on my part so I'll back down and deal with them later. Is this being too defensive for my own good?

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I would normally do this too, Martin. However I did make the other decision not long ago when driving an MX-5 very legally up to the end of a 30 limit, whilst being followed by a lady of advanced years in a Micra. As we came to the end of the 30 limit she put her indicator on and started an overtake. However I decided this did not fit in with my plans so I left her behind. This provoked a headlamp flash, but since we never saw her again, I think I was justified. Of course I could have let her past and then overtaken her in my turn, but that might also have provoked adverse reaction, this time with our cars alongside each other. On reflection, I'm happy with my decision.

[MGF]

If you accelerated before the end of the 30 limit I can understand the disapproval.

[7db]

Clearly your fault for not being offside first.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

If you accelerated before the end of the 30 limit I can understand the disapproval.

Nope She just wasn't expecting me to accelerate after it. In fact, I expect the fact that I waited until I was past the sign was the part that was alien to her.

[Ralge]

...To answer one question of yours, when planning to accelerate out of one speed limit to another, I am more than interested to know that following traffic is not planning to out-accelerate me and is therefore not a threat.

Yes and that opens up another debate...I have a fairly quick car which will out accelerate most but if someone in a 'normal' car was already off-side I'd probably let the go past rather than 'embarrass' them by flooring it and leaving them in a trail of dust. My argument is it might be seen to be aggressive on my part so I'll back down and deal with them later. Is this being too defensive for my own good?

Like yours, mine is quite quick and although it's not a blanket statement of how I respond to others ... I do quite enjoy spotting the driver who catches me up markedly in a 30 zone and then leaving him/her well behind me as I enter an open NSL.

It's not a blanket statement since, with one such limit change, there's a residential side road on the right only metres before the change to NSL. It was only my awareness (mirror!) and backing off to well below 30 in response to the prematurely accelerating overtaker that allowed him to get back to the left in the face of a vehicle emerging left from the side road.

[7db]

I do quite enjoy spotting the driver who catches me up markedly in a 30 zone and then leaving him/her well behind me as I enter an open NSL.

Racing?

No - I know you don't think it's racing. But as soon as you're comparing your progress with someone else's, I'm at a loss as what else to call it. I know it's an often commented upon thing -- see how much quicker than others you go when you look ahead and make sensible lane selections etc etc.

Just a thought to plant in one's mind.