Roadcraft on Steering

[jcochrane]

New Roadcraft turned up today.
Only had time to turn to steering. Guess what Fixed Input described and recommended. At last.

[WhoseGeneration]

New Roadcraft turned up today.
Only had time to turn to steering. Guess what Fixed Input described and recommended. At last.

vonhosen input required here, well, considering his described approach to helping students to achieve.
Oh dear, some Observers and Masters tutors are going to have to reconsider.

[Kimosabe]

So why not mention every systemised steering input? The guy I spoke to today about 1-1 coaching said he had no issue with fixed input, providing it was used appropriately and executed properly.

Please avoid Hove while I practise the 'Scandinavian Flick'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick

[TripleS]

For "fixed input" read "fixed grip." The steering input will vary.

[WhoseGeneration]

Please avoid Hove while I practise the 'Scandinavian Flick'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick

Are the roads your way now in so bad a condition that you need to use loose surface techniques to make progress?
Being serious, at the present rate of roads maintenance, it might be that this becomes true.
Or, of course, NSL will be 20mph.

[michael769]

New Roadcraft turned up today.
Only had time to turn to steering. Guess what Fixed Input described and recommended. At last.

Fixed input was also described in the last edition! The change is that it is now presented as "the standard hold" and to be the default for small changes of direction.

[waremark]

The change is that it is now presented as "the standard hold" and to be the default for small changes of direction.

As it was in the last edition, with the illustration showing hand movements up to 12 o clock. My bewildermeint has been about why the technique recommended in Roadcraft was not even mentioned in HTBABD.

[GJD]

My bewildermeint has been about why the technique recommended in Roadcraft was not even mentioned in HTBABD.

My bewilderment has been why the IAM published HTBABD when Roadcraft already exists.

[Kimosabe]

So crossing my hands while steering is still okay then, despite being repeatedly told that it isn't by PP adherents? (Roadcraft 2013, Ch.5, p.116)

I wonder if anybody has calculated the degrees of rotational gain between PP and RS?

[waremark]

So crossing my hands while steering is still okay then, despite being repeatedly told that it isn't by PP adherents? (Roadcraft 2013, Ch.5, p.116)

I wonder if anybody has calculated the degrees of rotational gain between PP and RS?

Please quote more of referenced page, and translate second para.

[Kimosabe]

So crossing my hands while steering is still okay then, despite being repeatedly told that it isn't by PP adherents? (Roadcraft 2013, Ch.5, p.116)

I wonder if anybody has calculated the degrees of rotational gain between PP and RS?

Please quote more of referenced page, and translate second para.

1. "Moving your hands past the 12 o'clock position places your arms across the wheel."

Diagram 3 on page 116 shows an already rotated (right hand between 9 and 10 o'clock) steering wheel and the left hand crossing over it to about 2 o'clock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ0vLK1zbkg

2. What are the gains and losses in rotation or control between PP and RS?

Edited to add this:
viewtopic.php?t=865

It's all just a little bit of history repeating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8

[Astraist]

The gains and losses? Well, there should be no difference between the amplitude in both methods: In each of them, each hand has a leverage of about 180 degrees, assuming that the driver does indeed take "big bites" of steering.

The difference is in the ability to apply that amplitude quickly enough. When we pull-push, we use the entire circumference of the wheel, where as with rotation steering we are mostly using the upper half of it. This allows the hands to move freely, being unrestricted by the trunk as they are when operating the wheel from the lower half. This makes rotational steering faster, when quick steering is required. It is most probably the fastest way to steer for sharp deviations.

The advantage of pull-push is that either hand remains on it's own side. This means less shoulder movement (unlike pushing the wheel across) and therefore less of a needless application of upper body strength, which provides little sensitivety or smoothness and exerts excessive energy. Also, the ressistance of the opposite palm makes steering movements more subtle.

Moving into fixed-input steering, it is the ideal method of steering - unless the steering input required is 90 degrees or more. If our steering racks were as short as to minimize the occasions where such steering inputs are required (as it is a single-seater race cars), we would always steer with fixed input.

When steering over 90 degrees, your pushing hand crosses over and your pulling hand - which provides most of the sensory input - is all bent at the wrist and barely hanging on to the rim. This does not mean that the steering cannot be turned further, though! With the hands at around quarter to three, fixed input can be used for deviations of up to 260 degrees, but such steering can only be accepted for very sudden steering manuevers, like dozing off to avoid an obstalce (which in turn, results from bad observation).

I, for one, use fixed-input steering about 99% of the time, without crossing the hands over 12 O'clock mid corner. How come? By the use of a method which is surprsingly still unmentioned in this thread - predictive steering. This method isn't much more than plain fixed input steering, instead that before the bend, one or both hands (depending on the input required) is pre-positioned in the opposite direction just so that after steering into the bend, both hands fall back into the quarter to three positioning, and vice versa when steering out of the bend.

[Kimosabe]

Thank you Astraist.

[WhoseGeneration]

Thank you Astraist.

"Predictive steering", this requires more skill than PP and perhaps why it isn't generally taught in AD at the initial level.

Astraist mentioned single seaters, ie, competition cars and yes, this generally, including crossed arms is the traditional competition way.

Competition drivers tend to want to be able to instantly direct the front wheels, perhaps with relevent accelerator input and not want the steering wheel to, possibly, get free from their grip as it might using PP.

That said, look at rally car steering wheels, they often have yellow tape at 12 o'clock with front wheels straight.
Every little helps.

When you have sorted your MX5, get out on some B roads and practice all the methods you have now seen described and determine, for yourself, how each might be of use to you.

[TripleS]

I, for one, use fixed-input steering about 99% of the time, without crossing the hands over 12 O'clock mid corner. How come? By the use of a method which is surprsingly still unmentioned in this thread - predictive steering. This method isn't much more than plain fixed input steering, instead that before the bend, one or both hands (depending on the input required) is pre-positioned in the opposite direction just so that after steering into the bend, both hands fall back into the quarter to three positioning, and vice versa when steering out of the bend.

Well OK, I'm not in a position to dispute your 99%, but it does rather imply that you spend a large proportion of your time driving on out of town roads with large radius bends. Topical note: the old Spa Francorchamps circuit would have been admirable for your preferred steering style.

Anyhow, predictive steering is being considered in other threads here, so the subject is not being neglected.

Now I can see that PS might, in some situations, be useful as a steering technique in conjunction with the fixed grip style, but I'm not sure that a wheel hold of 9-3 is appropriate at the mid-point of a bend. To me 9-3 would probably feel unnatural at that point. It just doesn't seem a logical starting point for the phase in which we're going to be reducing the amount of steering lock we have just applied. I can see that a grip of 9-3 would be natural on a straight road, and that this would still be appropriate for a large radius bend that doesn't require a change of grip; but the starting point for the phase in which we're going to be taking steering lock off, is surely not hand positioning of 9-3.

I can of course see that some degree of predictive steering might at times be advantageous, but I think I'd be inclined to use it only to the extent of avoiding arms being crossed at the mid-point of the bend. In other words, I can see the merits of PS in so far as it enables the hands to be sensibly placed at the mid-bend stage, i.e. it avoids the hands being taken past the 11-5 or 7-1 positions, but I don't think I would want to extend its use beyond that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.