Roadcraft on Steering

[WhoseGeneration]

I, for one, use fixed-input steering about 99% of the time, without crossing the hands over 12 O'clock mid corner. How come? By the use of a method which is surprsingly still unmentioned in this thread - predictive steering. This method isn't much more than plain fixed input steering, instead that before the bend, one or both hands (depending on the input required) is pre-positioned in the opposite direction just so that after steering into the bend, both hands fall back into the quarter to three positioning, and vice versa when steering out of the bend.

Well OK, I'm not in a position to dispute your 99%, but it does rather imply that you spend a large proportion of your time driving on out of town roads with large radius bends. Topical note: the old Spa Francorchamps circuit would have been admirable for your preferred steering style.

Anyhow, predictive steering is being considered in other threads here, so the subject is not being neglected.

Now I can see that PS might, in some situations, be useful as a steering technique in conjunction with the fixed grip style, but I'm not sure that a wheel hold of 9-3 is appropriate at the mid-point of a bend. To me 9-3 would probably feel unnatural at that point. It just doesn't seem a logical starting point for the phase in which we're going to be reducing the amount of steering lock we have just applied. I can see that a grip of 9-3 would be natural on a straight road, and that this would still be appropriate for a large radius bend that doesn't require a change of grip; but the starting point for the phase in which we're going to be taking steering lock off, is surely not hand positioning of 9-3.

I can of course see that some degree of predictive steering might at times be advantageous, but I think I'd be inclined to use it only to the extent of avoiding arms being crossed at the mid-point of the bend. In other words, I can see the merits of PS in so far as it enables the hands to be sensibly placed at the mid-bend stage, i.e. it avoids the hands being taken past the 11-5 or 7-1 positions, but I don't think I would want to extend its use beyond that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Not mentioned in all this discussion is rack ratio and size of steering wheel. These both have an influence upon how one might decide to approach steering.

[Astraist]

]"Predictive steering", this requires more skill than PP and perhaps why it isn't generally taught in AD at the initial level.

Oh, yes. It is a more "advanced" method, which I would not advise to AD's in the initial level, but I find it the most useful way to steer a car.

Well OK, I'm not in a position to dispute your 99%, but it does rather imply that you spend a large proportion of your time driving on out of town roads with large radius bends.

No, it's just that I apply a slightly more refined method of "predictive steering" which allows to take even the tightest bends in town. For large steering inputs, instead of pre-positioning both hands (which offer a poor range), I preposition just one, the hand in the direction of the bend. This hand pulls the wheel as it runs under the fingers of the opposite hand, which remains in place. This allows to apply predictive steering to any sort of bend, including tight U-turns.

This is a good illustration:

Now I can see that PS might, in some situations, be useful as a steering technique in conjunction with the fixed grip style, but I'm not sure that a wheel hold of 9-3 is appropriate at the mid-point of a bend. To me 9-3 would probably feel unnatural at that point. It just doesn't seem a logical starting point for the phase in which we're going to be reducing the amount of steering lock we have just applied.

Again, this issue is sorted out by the applying steering as prescribed above. When drivers relocate both hands in order to apply predictive steering, they find it difficult to reduce the steering lock back to straight because it places their hands off-set again. By relocating only one hand, you can pull out of the bend, just like you did coming into it, in reverse (see video above).

Not mentioned in all this discussion is rack ratio and size of steering wheel. These both have an influence upon how one might decide to approach steering.

Oh, yes, that too! if the steering wheel is excessively large (which also depends on the driver's size!) or horizontal, as it is on many lorries, pull-push is generally preferable, in my view. The steering ratio is less significant in this regard, although the steering method also depends on how heavy the steering is to turn (which also depends on steering ratio). If the steering is exceptionally heavy - we return to plain old pull-push again.

[WhoseGeneration]

This is a good illustration:

Interesting, I note the yellow tape on the steering wheel and something I would never do in public road driving, thumbs hooked around the steering wheel.

It seems to me that this video illustrates techniques that are very advanced and mainly aimed at use for high speeds, whether on road or track.

I'm not denying their use but, here in the UK, this AD stuff, is in the main, so far as the organisations who promote it are concerned, about driving within our speed limits and providing a "simple" means to improve an "average" driver.

[Kimosabe]

That's a big 10-4 good buddy.

I'll soon be treating steering like free jazz, just like real ADers do.

Thing is that there are loads of people who were doing all of the above in an unnamed way, before some people told them PP was the only viable method and disrupted the natural flow for what turns out to be no good reason. Turning everything into techniques may be good for beginners or folk with real difficulties but to disrupt perfectly natural ability with fixed attitudes for its own sake, does little for the cause of improving road safety or my patience for such things. It's just a bit odd but thanks to the generosity of you forum folks, I've been able to keep at it and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Going to update the MX5 centric thread, so drop by.

[WhoseGeneration]

That's a big 10-4 good buddy.

I'll soon be treating steering like free jazz, just like real ADers do.

Thing is that there are loads of people who were doing all of the above in an unnamed way, before some people told them PP was the only viable method and disrupted the natural flow for what turns out to be no good reason. Turning everything into techniques may be good for beginners or folk with real difficulties but to disrupt perfectly natural ability with fixed attitudes for its own sake, does little for the cause of improving road safety or my patience for such things. It's just a bit odd but thanks to the generosity of you forum folks, I've been able to keep at it and I'm sure I'm not alone.

It's a huge area for debate, as you've come to realise, having how to approach it in the roots of the way back past of worm and peg steering gear, then recirculating balls and mainly, nowadays, rack and pinion, wth power assistance, whether hydraulic, electro hydraulic or solely electric.

Some organisations are reluctant to accept the way changes have occured.

That said, whatever method(s) you use, try to have a valid explanation.

[TripleS]

Thing is that there are loads of people who were doing all of the above in an unnamed way, before some people told them PP was the only viable method and disrupted the natural flow for what turns out to be no good reason. Turning everything into techniques may be good for beginners or folk with real difficulties but to disrupt perfectly natural ability with fixed attitudes for its own sake, does little for the cause of improving road safety or my patience for such things. It's just a bit odd but thanks to the generosity of you forum folks, I've been able to keep at it and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Well that's pretty much my feeling too.

Anyhow, thanks to Astraist and WG for their comments, but having watched that video I merely saw it as a perfectly natural and flexible style of steering that seemed to have bits of pull-push and rotational in it. it certainly wasn't what I expected predictive steering to look like. I expected predictive steering to look like fixed grip, but with (probably both) hands being re-positioned before a bend, and returned to their original 9-3 (most likely) afterwards.

This obviously merits further consideration, at least on my part. Carry on, I'll keep listening.

[ExadiNigel]

[quote="Astraist]I preposition just one, the hand in the direction of the bend. This hand pulls the wheel as it runs under the fingers of the opposite hand, which remains in place.[/quote]

maybe i'm missing something, it just sounds like pull push without the 12/6 o'clock limitation.

[jcochrane]

I would agree.
If I understand Astraist correctly this does not sound like "predictive" as understood in this country.
It looks very similar though to PP where a large "bite" (lead hand goes beyond 12) is taken to pre position the hand before beginning the steering action. Something that might be used for very sharp, slow bends or turning into side roads for example.

[Astraist]

It's a blend. I also preposition both hands, for some bends. But since prepositioning both hands is very limited in leverage, for tighter inputs I use just one hand. I can see how it can be seen as a variant of pull-push, since it involves pulling the wheel (also on the grounds that it is more accurate and easy than pushing).

However, it is different from pull-push in a few senses. The first of which is that the opposite palm remains stationary, which provides less ressistance against the hand which is turning the wheel. Also, the steering hand can be prepositioned across the wheel and even around and below, for very tight inputs, which also involves some kind of crossing the hands one under the other - which is more like rotational steering.

Interesting, I note the yellow tape on the steering wheel and something I would never do in public road driving, thumbs hooked around the steering wheel.

It seems to me that this video illustrates techniques that are very advanced and mainly aimed at use for high speeds, whether on road or track.

While I agree that it is an advanced technique and that more simple techniques can suit an average AD, I do believe that even if the technique originates from a high-speed driving environment, it should be suitable for the public road. Actually, the fact of It being used in such a driving environment only makes the technique "proven" for use in all sorts of driving conditions.

As for the thumbs: I find that in modern cars, on a paved road, the risk involved in placing the thumb inside the rim is negligable, and that the improved grip by placing the thumbs inside the rim is favorable over that risk. Note that this coach (Titi Aur) is sitting inside a rally car meant for gravel driving, where the risk for thumb dislocation is actually greater than on public roads!

N.B. Note that Titi is also demonstrating how this method can be used to go through a series of bends (0:57-1:04) from left to right, as well as demonstrate (1:20 onward) how not to turn the wheel (at his view) like pushing it across.

[Zebedee]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

[TripleS]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

Very rapidly indeed. They couldn't function without Roadcraft.

[Ralge]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

Very rapidly indeed. They couldn't function without Roadcraft.

Funny that, I was thinking that it wouldn't make much difference.
The driving contexts that find out a weakness in any one of the steering options discussed here are few and far between in ordinary Highway driving (as distinct from high-performance and track driving).

As long as the steering performance and the outcome can be classified as "smooth, gradual, unhurried, disciplined, fluent, accurate, safe", for instance, I'm happy.

[TripleS]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

Very rapidly indeed. They couldn't function without Roadcraft.

Funny that, I was thinking that it wouldn't make much difference.
The driving contexts that find out a weakness in any one of the steering options discussed here are few and far between in ordinary Highway driving (as distinct from high-performance and track driving).

As long as the steering performance and the outcome can be classified as "smooth, gradual, unhurried, disciplined, fluent, accurate, safe", for instance, I'm happy.

I agree with what you say; it was just me being cheeky again.

The thing is, this driving lark is a continually evolving process, or it should be, so while it's right to keep an eye on the developments, it's no use getting too mesmerised with today's wisdom, because tomorrow's advice will surely be a bit different anyhow. We should each seek to get the best out of it for ourselves as individuals.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[ExadiNigel]

]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

Would that depend on what the change is. Although they have an obligation to keep up with the latest 'thinking' what happens if they see it as a 'dumbing down' change? While I was an ADI I was seeing the DSA and Roadcraft becoming closer in their driving styles.

[TripleS]

So, does the new wording in the latest Roadcraft mark a genuine change? If so, how do changes in Roadcraft filter to IAM/RoSPA Examiners and Observers/Tutors?

Would that depend on what the change is. Although they have an obligation to keep up with the latest 'thinking' what happens if they see it as a 'dumbing down' change? While I was an ADI I was seeing the DSA and Roadcraft becoming closer in their driving styles.

Good. I've long felt that some of the 'advanced' stuff ought to be brought into the DSA syllabus.