Roadcraft on Steering

[Ralge]

I would hope/trust that Associates are picked up for/actively discouraged from using hand-over-hand ('knitting') and crossing the arm over the wheel to grip the inside of the wheel rim (Not sure what that's called...). I view these as bad habits. Am I correct in thinking that they would be picked up for this?

IMO, if an Associate’s steering is poor (hurried, jerky, inaccurate, unsafe, etc) I would imagine that getting back to basics with PP, with Fixed Grip up to an agreed angle, would be a good starting point and allow other techniques to come in later. Reasonable?

Personally, I wouldn’t like to see anyone letting the wheel slip through their hands but each to their own…

Why not? It doesn't surprise me to find AD people disapproving of it, but if it is done with care I find it works perfectly satisfactorily

On my first drive with an IAM Observer I got picked up for the way I held the steering wheel, and the position of my hands. I had been trying to be reasonably well behaved, holding the wheel at somewhere around 9-3, but he wasn't happy with that, so I moved them up a bit, but that still wasn't good enough. I moved them up another three quarters of an inch, and only then did he pronounce it acceptable.

....and to think I'd been driving for about 48 years and never realised what a complete hash I was making of steering.

Now I'm sure that isn't typical of all IAM Observers, but clearly there's sufficient of that mentality in the IAM for a lot of people to be put off going to them. Just as a matter of interest, do the RoSPA AD people suffer similarly from this, er, anality? (That word may not be strictly appropriate, but I expect you know what I mean.)

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I have no problem with 9-3 - i would suggest that it is more balanced than 10-2 and my RoSPA examiner and I agreed on that as I recall on my last re-test. (He is also an IAM examiner.) I can't recall ever having this discussion with anyone at RoSPA HQ, on any course or supervision.

Same old, same old ... Individual trainers, observers, examiners do not sing off the same hymn sheet and I'm not sure whether that is ever likely to be achieved. After all, the HQ's have only spasmodic, irregular, very rare oversight of the local groups' activities on-the-ground. By contrast, there's far more oversight of us as RoSPA trainers but uniformity of training delivery and messages given from the body of trainers is immensely difficult to attain and is a full-time job for the QA Manager.
If the uniformity of paid professionals can't be assured, what chance unpaid, volunteer observers?

[GJD]

Same old, same old ... Individual trainers, observers, examiners do not sing off the same hymn sheet and I'm not sure whether that is ever likely to be achieved.

Depends what it says on the hymn sheet. If it were a long prescriptive list - this is how you should do this, that is how you should to that, here are the circumstances in which you should use technique A, here are the circumstances in which you should use technique B etc. etc. - then I think getting all your observers, trainers and examiners to sing of that hymn sheet would be impossible. Some would object to the idea of having such a list, and of those who liked the idea, almost all of them would be able to find something on the list they disagreed with and could be tempted to use their on list instead.

On the other hand, the hymn sheet could simply say, "if you have a fixed mindset about how something must be done and your trainee achieves good, consistent results doing it differently then it is your mindset, not their technique that is wrong". I think it would be very achievable to get everybody singing that hymn if you wanted to, albeit you might have to accept losing some of the congregation along the way.

You would then just be left with the not-at-all-trivial problem of achieving consistent high standards of training/observing/examining under the philosophy of that hymn sheet. Hard enough amongst a professional community and, as you suggest, probably even more so with a volunteer community.

[Kimosabe]

It seems to me that the difficulties I most often witness other drivers getting themselves into, don't relate to where their (or my own) hands were positioned on the wheel (or not) but have more to do with how they respond/ react to the situations they unknowingly create or find themselves in. I still maintain that after 27 years of safe driving, that whatever names might be given to where my hands were on a wheel, whatever they were doing was as a learned ability to effectively position my car wherever I wanted it to be at the time. That never failed me and I dare say the same is true for more people than not.

Those of a sensitive disposition should look away now.
On long motorway cruising journeys, I sometimes hold the wheel at around the undeadly 5:35 position. There, I said it! I'm a 5:35er and proud of it! This highly jazzy and very unflamboyant variation on the 9:15/3:45 has been repeatedly proven to relieve the muscle fatigue created by hanging on to the wheel at the equally undodgy 19:24, which in turn leads to greater concentration due to slower onset lactose burn. It's also a much higher number and should convince even the most cynical mind that it therefore must be a more advanced technique. As this has not yet been given a formal name, has been proven to be safe, smooth, effective, physiologically sound and as there are now sciencey sounding reasons to justify it, I would like to call it 'The Kimosabe'. Good. Now it's a legitimate position and all is well.

PS: I'll be running a weekend course in 'Jazzy steering for the slightly curious' this October, alongside my book 'Undogmatic driving for the flexibly minded' launch. Your investment will be £3,000 and I have had every straight bit of motorway in Britain reserved for us to go out and practice on in real-life situations. Your inexpensive investment also includes affiliate membership of a private members only driving club, a highly ambiguous, yet really official looking window sticker and on completion of the course, you're name will appear in an online register and you'll be issued with a numbered membership card, a certificate bearing my signature and the option to purchase various really interesting related items. Book early to avoid disappointment. Offer subject to availability.

...is it hot in here or is it me?

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

"On my first drive with an IAM Observer ..." and lots more prejudiced stuff ...

The record's stuck ...

Best wishes all,
Dave.

How do we distinguish between your "Best wishes" and your disapproval?

So if the behaviour you experienced isn't typical, why do you keep repeating it at every opportunity? You must be aware that nearly everyone who contributes regularly here is or has been, an observer / tutor for either IAM or RoADAR. Do you have such a low opinion of us all? Mightn't it be time for you to admit that perhaps you were just as dogmatic as your observer - he told you to do something, you refused because you didn't want to be told what to do ... stalemate.

Back to steering. What I look for when out with an associate is:

- the ability to apply the correct amount of steering for the hazard - most people can apply enough, eventually (if they didn't they'd fall off the road). Many people apply too much initially and have to take some off after a second or so.
- a safe technique that demonstrates control. This could be one of a number of techniques. Generally if the top hand passes 12 o'clock by more than a few degrees except at the beginning of the manoeuvre it's not going to be viewed favourably by the examiners (boo, hiss etc.) so I may point this out.
- smoothness in inputs, both applying and removing it. "Smoothly on, smoothly off".
- the minimum amount of steering commensurate with all of the above (yes this sort of repeats the second point but not quite the same thing).

Now, where did I mention pull-push? Oh ....

For slower speed manoeuvres where lots of lock is required, PP is still a wonderful technique. I think I wrote something about that a little while ago

[WhoseGeneration]

PS: I'll be running a weekend course in 'Jazzy steering for the slightly curious' this October, alongside my book 'Undogmatic driving for the flexibly minded' launch. Your investment will be £3,000 and I have had every straight bit of motorway in Britain reserved for us to go out and practice on in real-life situations. Your inexpensive investment also includes affiliate membership of a private members only driving club, a highly ambiguous, yet really official looking window sticker and on completion of the course, you're name will appear in an online register and you'll be issued with a numbered membership card, a certificate bearing my signature and the option to purchase various really interesting related items. Book early to avoid disappointment. Offer subject to availability.

Competition is good, link to website?
Btw, a "you're " that should be your.

[TripleS]

...a certain amount of (in my view) nonsense about some comments of mine.

Nick - if you are minded to be fair, you could acknowledge that while I have often criticised the overly finicky approach of some Observers, I have also often been at pains to give credit for the good work that most Observers do, especially as they do this on a voluntary and unpaid basis with the aim of helping people, and that is quite splendid. They are not all being criticised.

If you are merely going to whinge when a bit of criticism emerges, even when it wasn't aimed at you; and yet you can't graciously accept praise when it is offered, that's your problem, and I don't see much merit in trying to communicate with you on that basis. Sorry, but there you go.

My best wishes to fellow forum members,
Dave.

[Kimosabe]

I was told by my RoSPA observer only to use PP, because I had briefly used Fixed Input to negotiate a bend. The reason given was that because it is the favoured method used by racing drivers, it encourages a more aggressive racing style of driving. I asked what the limit of movement of the wheel is considered to be before the hands need to move on the wheel and he said to just use PP because it's safer. Oh well, there goes my theory of safe steering. Putting in for my test today.

[Kimosabe]

PS: I'll be running a weekend course in 'Jazzy steering for the slightly curious' this October, alongside my book 'Undogmatic driving for the flexibly minded' launch. Your investment will be £3,000 and I have had every straight bit of motorway in Britain reserved for us to go out and practice on in real-life situations. Your inexpensive investment also includes affiliate membership of a private members only driving club, a highly ambiguous, yet really official looking window sticker and on completion of the course, you're name will appear in an online register and you'll be issued with a numbered membership card, a certificate bearing my signature and the option to purchase various really interesting related items. Book early to avoid disappointment. Offer subject to availability.

Competition is good, link to website?
Btw, a "you're " that should be your.

I have failed and will now write it out a hundred times. What's you're address so I can post you a copy?

[WhoseGeneration]

I have failed and will now write it out a hundred times. What's you're address so I can post you a copy?

, all fun.
Btw, ask your Observer which racing drivers racing modern cars, across all Formulae, use PP.

[Astraist]

I was told by my RoSPA observer only to use PP, because I had briefly used Fixed Input to negotiate a bend. The reason given was that because it is the favoured method used by racing drivers, it encourages a more aggressive racing style of driving.

I would very much like to know what about racing (on tarmac, at least) comes around as aggressive to the said observer. There is nothing aggressive about racing on tarmac tracks. If anything, it's the driving style that requires the utmost finesse and smoothness, much more than road driving ever has, does or will.

Even if it were aggressive, I would not see how a racing driver would fail to adapt to public road conditions in that respect. Racing drivers do what they do on the track because the conditions offered by the track allow it. It is only bidding that they would act by the same standard (i.e. adjust to conditions) when driving on the public road.

Furthermore, if the driver is not a racing driver but simply uses a technique that stems from racing, I do not see how that would encourage aggression, especially with something so plain as fixed input steering. The technique should be viewed for it's objective mertis, not for it's association with racing or not.

If anything, I view the technique's professional application in racing as an advantage for using it on the road, in the sense that the technique is also proven to be applicable in more demanding conditions, should such arise when driving.

I asked what the limit of movement of the wheel is considered to be before the hands need to move on the wheel and he said to just use PP because it's safer. Oh well, there goes my theory of safe steering. Putting in for my test today.

It's safer? In what sense?! In the perfect world (where the steering ratio allows to negotiate all bends in under 90 degrees of steering), fixed input would always be the ideal, safest and most natural manner of steering. Any other steering method is to be used when steering inputs are greater than such.

[Zebedee]

No wonder people are put off advanced driving, if this is the sort of tripe that Tutors are spouting. So much for the updated wording in the new edition of Roadcraft! I imagine that even a RoSPA examiner would permit a little fixed grip steering. (Mine did.)

[WhoseGeneration]

No wonder people are put off advanced driving, if this is the sort of tripe that Tutors are spouting. So much for the updated wording in the new edition of Roadcraft! I imagine that even a RoSPA examiner would permit a little fixed grip steering. (Mine did.)

The great god Lord Cottenham did decree, based upon 1937's cars' technology.
Some still love valves, most have moved onto solid state.

[ExadiNigel]

A RoSPA examiner will allow quite a lot if you justify what you're doing. I would suggest if ou are going to do something away from he norm then drop into commentary, giving an assessment and a reason why you're doing it.

[WhoseGeneration]

A RoSPA examiner will allow quite a lot if you justify what you're doing. I would suggest if ou are going to do something away from he norm then drop into commentary, giving an assessment and a reason why you're doing it.

Isn't the point though that, to any casual observer of this forum, in terms of numbers of pages, we seem to overly concerned with the minutiae of technique and less with real world driving?

[Gareth]

to any casual observer of this forum, in terms of numbers of pages, we seem to overly concerned with the minutiae of technique and less with real world driving?

What else do you imagine there could be here?