An IAM/DSA Tossed Salad

[drivingsteve]

I'm sure there are people on this forum who have become advanced drivers through the IAM/RoSPA and are also ADIs.

If so, how to handle the different driving styles encouraged by Roadcraft and the DSA respectively? I'm increasingly finding my driving is a bit of a hybrid between the two. For example, I tend to use MSM(PSL) rather than IPSGA for simplicity. However when it comes to signalling, I look around and decide if there's anyone who would benefit from it, rather than automatically signalling at a junction.

I'm sure there are many more slughtly conflicting techniques that could be described.

If you're an ADI and Roadcraft based advanced driver, how do you approach your own driving?

[vonhosen]

By not jumping through DSA/Roadcraft hoops for the sake of it. Do what gives good consistent results, rather than concentrating on conforming to another's dictated style.

[TripleS]

By not jumping through DSA/Roadcraft hoops for the sake of it. Do what gives good consistent results, rather than concentrating on conforming to another's dictated style.

That gets my vote too.

Best wishes all,
Dave - an advanced nonconformist.

[ROG]

I was doing DSA LGV instruction and advanced driver observation at the same time for a few years

I found that to give each the best I had to switch hats even though LGV and advanced driving are very close to each other - hence Adelaide insurance giving both about the same discounts

Many aspects were the same for both but there are differences in what a DSA and an advanced examiner want to see

These differences have been discussed on here so many time that I am not going into them again

[Ralge]

I'm sure there are people on this forum who have become advanced drivers through the IAM/RoSPA and are also ADIs.

If so, how to handle the different driving styles encouraged by Roadcraft and the DSA respectively? I'm increasingly finding my driving is a bit of a hybrid between the two. For example, I tend to use MSM(PSL) rather than IPSGA for simplicity. However when it comes to signalling, I look around and decide if there's anyone who would benefit from it, rather than automatically signalling at a junction.

I'm sure there are many more slughtly conflicting techniques that could be described.

If you're an ADI and Roadcraft based advanced driver, how do you approach your own driving?

I sort of know what you mean but don't myself have an inner conflict (at least, I don't think so).

Anyone's view of the two Systems are bound to be clouded by personal experience: "my AD Observer said this/that"; "a pupil of mine was failed on this/that"; "an AD friend of mind says"; "I once had a chat with a Traffic Cop in a bar".

You suggest that signalling conventions are different between the two Systems. Well, I'm not so sure that the Systems are too dissimilar.
Driving: the Essential Skills p.96 offers "a signal might not be necessary where there is no-one to benefit from it ... Consider whether a signal is necessary ..."
So not a lot of difference there.
In the application of the system, there may be a difference since ADI's may find it easier in the early stages to talk a pupil through MSPSL with a signal given every time to avoid overloading the pupil with too many decisions. This, for me, this should only be allowed in the very early stages since a pupil can be encouraged after the first lesson or three to decide for themselves whether or not to give a signal, what signal and when.
The common expressed fault with ADI'S presenting themselves for AD is "you are not keen on making progress and you indicate far too much" leading to the easy conclusion, "you spend too much time next to learners".

Progress is another obvious area of difference, yet it is the case that lack of progress is marked down in both camps.
I was guilty of a tendency for lack of progress in the early days as an ADI and wannabe AD despite having been a rush-rush rep' for 25 years. Only thing is, the Police examiners are used to seeing crisp, business-like and operationally effective progress. Anything less appears to be a Sunday afternoon drive. How do I deal with this? Well, I wear different hats of different styles for different audiences. My natural driving style is "defensive" and I flick a switch in my head for "progressive".

Positioning is an area of contrasting views. I was once criticised on my fleet training course for crossing a hatched area prematurely in order to enter a right-turn box. I think this comment came with a DSA tinge on it. I have not been able to accept this comment since I have allowed myself to advise pupils to use such space to help following traffic pass on the left. At the same time I have encouraged them not to use hatched areas habitually and only to do so when they can justify it. This advice ties up with AD, I believe.
On my initial observed RoSPA runs I was criticised for marginally cutting over a roundabout's lane-divider paint AND criticised for not straight-lining another roundabout. I wish I had a pound for every time anyone reports that an AD Observer has given confusing advice. Interestingly, one of the two driving faults on my DSA ADI Part2 test was for grievously clipping the lane-dividing paint on exiting a roundabout onto a d/c (with no-one anywhere near me!)

The boldness of positioning (for vision/visibility/stability/communication) that an AD is prepared to exhibit is the major difference between the two codes, potentially. I don't know for sure but I get the distinct impression that if a L-test pupil positioned AD-style some DSA examiners would have kittens because learners aren't supposed to do that. Having said that, I can also see a DSA examiner understanding that he/she has been taught by a retired traffic cop Dad, for instance, and see it for what it is.
How do I deal with that? Well, always prepared to be bold IF there's a need/benefit without an increase in risk.

I haven't had too much involvement in the learner market for some years now but I reckon I've aimed to give them an amalgamation of the DSA syllabus, defensive and AD observational and anticipation skills. And I haven't felt too much conflict between these inputs so I hope it works for them now they have a licence.

The differences can be and are often overstated in my book and in yours, maybe, if you use the "tossed salad" (bit of this plus a bit of that for a varied taste) analogy.

[Horse]

For example, I tend to use MSM(PSL) rather than IPSGA for simplicity.

I learned 'advanced' in Blue Book days, where the 7 point system included (to be considered) far more than MSM PSL - bearing in mind that MSM PSL doesn't include a 'G' - but also taught it to learner riders.

I then - before the '95 major re-write of Roadcraft - learned the US MSF systems of SIPDE (Scan Identify Predict Decide Act) and their simplified Search Predict Act, and taught those as well as teaching UK learners for their test and advanced riders for theirs.

Of course, (the then) new Roadcraft introduced IPSGA and Observe Plan Act.



After all that, just do what Von suggests

My preferred version of the 'S's is: Safety Smooth Style. If you can achieve the first two, what the hell does it matter how you achieve it?

[drivingsteve]

Thanks for all the responses to this. it seems to me that overall, the DSA teach a relatively rigid "one size fits all" approach to driving. Probably suitable for helping people pass their initial L test.

It seems the roadcraft way has a lot more flexibility and scope for common sense built in. Perhaps I've been trying to stick to specific guidelines too much rather than making a judgement based on a given current situation and taking into account all my training.

The issue of straightlining roundabouts and crossing broken white lines seems like a good example. If it smooths the ride for yoru passengers without breaking any laws or endangering other road users then why not use the whole width of the road in these situations?

[Horse]

The issue of straightlining roundabouts and crossing broken white lines seems like a good example. If it smooths the ride for yoru passengers without breaking any laws or endangering other road users then why not use the whole width of the road in these situations?

Yes, but . . .

Part of the 'trouble' with techniques like that is not actually the teaching of them, but the learning. It's all too easy for a learner (at any level) to hear the 'message' "Always be looking to do this ____ " rather than "If it's safe, legal, won't be misunderstood (etc.) . . . "

Plus, especially at AD level, this is often clouded by the 'make progress' imperative - again, which can often be misunderstood as 'GLF at every occasion' . . .

And, being picky, how often is it actually possible to straightline a roundabout? Almost never? What actually needs to done is to consider use of the lane/road width on the approach and exit as well as through, while ensuring view (see and be seen) and stopping distance are maintained. If the island is obstructive of view, then the roundabout should be treated more as a series of bends, with entrance, through and exit all requiring their own use of limit point.

So encouraging 'straighlinging' is a bit of a misnomer

[Zebedee]

It seems the roadcraft way has a lot more flexibility and scope for common sense built in. Perhaps I've been trying to stick to specific guidelines too much rather than making a judgement based on a given current situation and taking into account all my training.

I'd say that's about right. Whilst there are always exceptions, in the main I've found that IAM/RoSPA Examiners really want 'thinking' drivers and riders. If you can justify your action, then I've found this is usually what's required. Better to drive in a different manner from the Examiner and be able to justify why, as opposed to driving "by the book" yet being unable to explain your decision making. (I've even been chastened by a police trainer for riding too much by the book!)

Of course, there are a few basics to get in place as a foundation (knowledge of 'the System', sound observation and forward planning ... ). Being a 'thinking' motorist, however, must rank pretty high on the list that IAM and RoSPA Examiners want to see.

[Slink_Pink]

It seems the roadcraft way has a lot more flexibility and scope for common sense built in. Perhaps I've been trying to stick to specific guidelines too much rather than making a judgement based on a given current situation and taking into account all my training.

I'd say that's about right. Whilst there are always exceptions, in the main I've found that IAM/RoSPA Examiners really want 'thinking' drivers and riders. If you can justify your action, then I've found this is usually what's required. Better to drive in a different manner from the Examiner and be able to justify why, as opposed to driving "by the book" yet being unable to explain your decision making. (I've even been chastened by a police trainer for riding too much by the book!)

Of course, there are a few basics to get in place as a foundation (knowledge of 'the System', sound observation and forward planning ... ). Being a 'thinking' motorist, however, must rank pretty high on the list that IAM and RoSPA Examiners want to see.

I think that examiners really do appreciate the fact that Joe Public has devoted effort into improving their skills.

[drivingsteve]

Something else I now remember about DSA guidelines compared to IAM...

When preparing for my DSA test I was told that in order to perform the reversing around the corner manoeuvre, I should look primarily out of the rear window and not in the mirrors.

IAM advised to look wherever gave me the best view and provided the information needed to compete the manoeuvre safely and efficiently. Makes more sense doesn't it? Why would you deliberately not look in the external mirrors or side windows if doing so could potentially aid your visibility?

[fungus]

Something else I now remember about DSA guidelines compared to IAM...

When preparing for my DSA test I was told that in order to perform the reversing around the corner manoeuvre, I should look primarily out of the rear window and not in the mirrors.

IAM advised to look wherever gave me the best view and provided the information needed to compete the manoeuvre safely and efficiently. Makes more sense doesn't it? Why would you deliberately not look in the external mirrors or side windows if doing so could potentially aid your visibility?

The DSA follow the guidelines given in the Highway Code. Good all round observation is important. Check your blind spots and all your mirrors but look mainly over your left shoulder and out of the rear screen. A certain amount of mirror use is acceptable provided that there is not total reliance on them, indeed, how can observation be thorough without using the mirrors? What they do not want is reversing solely on the mirrors alone. Those that can not look around and need extra mirrors will have this marked as a condition of their licence.

[Tosh]

Something else I now remember about DSA guidelines compared to IAM...

When preparing for my DSA test I was told that in order to perform the reversing around the corner manoeuvre, I should look primaril!y out of the rear window and not in the mirrors.

IAM advised to look wherever gave me the best view and provided the information needed to compete the manoeuvre safely and efficiently. Makes more sense doesn't it? Why would you deliberately not look in the external mirrors or side windows if doing so could potentially aid your visibility?

The DSA follow the guidelines given in the Highway Code. Good all round observation is important. Check your blind spots and all your mirrors but look mainly over your left shoulder and out of the rear screen. A certain amount of mirror use is acceptable provided that there is not total reliance on them, indeed, how can observation be thorough without using the mirrors? What they do not want is reversing solely on the mirrors alone. Those that can not look around and need extra mirrors will have this marked as a condition of their licence.

Would it not be better for candidates to be taught to look where the best view is given while maintaining all round observation and awareness? Using the rear window is not helpful in all situations.

[GJD]

And, being picky, how often is it actually possible to straightline a roundabout? Almost never?

What do we mean by straightlining exactly? Are we talking about any time where you follow a different path to the lines of white paint and thereby cross, fully or partially, a lane boundary in a way that would be most uncool if someone were in that lane? I think opportunities for that come up a lot more often than 'almost never'.

[TripleS]

I was once criticised on my fleet training course for crossing a hatched area prematurely in order to enter a right-turn box. I think this comment came with a DSA tinge on it. I have not been able to accept this comment since I have allowed myself to advise pupils to use such space to help following traffic pass on the left. At the same time I have encouraged them not to use hatched areas habitually and only to do so when they can justify it. This advice ties up with AD, I believe.

Many thanks for an interesting post, but I'd like to respond to the bit above.

Where we have a short section of middle lane, leading to a 'box' in the middle of the road for those wishing to turn right, the road markings for these areas are not set out as well as they could be. Presumably they are done in accordance with some design code or regulation, but so far as practical and logical driving is concerned they are usually poor.

It would be far better if the tapered section of the middle lane (before you reach the 'box') were to be a shallow taper, rather than the very abrupt transition we usually see. The way they are normally set out means that we have to slow to a very low speed, before we can move across into the middle lane as we approach the box, unless we're prepared to drive over the hatched area. This means any driver following us also has to slow down, unless he is sufficiently switched on to see that we are planning make a right turn, and holds back so that he can maintain better pace as he passes to the left of us.

It will surprise no one to learn that I normally steer a course that feels natural, which means I drive over the hatched areas, which I regard as being 'necessary.'