Being overtaken during a limit change from 30 to NSL

[899cc]

I get this kind of thing regularly, I probably don't always do what is considered to be correct, but I'm not too sure that the 'correct' way is correct.

I had this happen recently, and this car started the overtake quite a bit before the sign, and by the time we got to the sign the other car was almost level with me, and I though he was going faster *. I was in 2nd gear, but I decided to lift off, to help him past. He went past VERY slowly, and eventually reached a speed of 40mph, and eventually reached 50mph. I had to go down to about 20mph for him to pass at a reasonable rate. This is an NSL road and I almost always do 60mph. I regret not going for it (when I reached the NSL sign), I would have made his life easier, and wouldn't have been held up by him.

What if we are polite to all drivers like this? Surely they aren't going to see anything wrong with it and will just continue doing it? My driving isn't as enjoyable as it should be. People around here seem to be very aggressive (even when they're not driving I think). These aggressive people tend to be the people that do these kind of overtakes, and I'm not sure whether I'd like to get on the wrong side of these people. I don't think it's going to be long until I become a victim of (a serious) crime. I had an incident not long ago with a bloke who tried to cause an accident, and then threatend to break my neck. At the time I was very confused and wasn't sure what to do because there was no valid reason for his behavior. I said nothing, and knew that he would go. Unfortuantely he's going to be back on the roads (and streets), which happen to be the same roads I use each day, and continue with this behavior. If I had confronted him I could have had him in prison. I'm not sure what I will do if he does this again, I'm not worried about my life, but I had a passenger with me

*I'm starting to wonder if it was an overtake or whether it was a case of road rage with him trying to drive next to me etc.

[Still learning]

Hi,

If we go back to the original post and look at police_drivers use of the system linking in with the rule already mentioned in the Highway Code re allowing someone to overtake and if need be, slow down.

So let's look at the information stage and remind ourselves why we are checking our mirrors, main mirror to see if we are being followed, offside mirror to see if we are, or are about to be overtaken.

What we see will depend on our assessment and subsequent actions.

The position stage, this can be used to your advantage, if you want, if there are no oncoming vehicles and you think the car behind may go for overtake early - what I have seen myself doing on occasions in a way not to antagonise the driver behind, is gradually take up a position towards the offside of my side of the road which restricts the view of the driver behind and once at the NSL and not before it - make good safe progress. Not once has this brought on road rage or red mist from another driver. OR just let them overtake early if they want and continue my drive as normal.

I certainly wouldn't speed up while within the restricted limit due to another driver behind. Let's face it the safest place for someone who drives too close and is in a hurry, is in front of you.

As mentioned in many posts on this forum - Safety should never be compromised for any other percieved benefit. ALSO, the whole idea of driving in a more positive and advanced way is to compensate for the driving mistakes of other drivers and to minimise your own!

Cheers, Brian

[waremark]

Well, I realised that my post would be controversial. Police Driver seems to have completely misunderstood where I was coming from, Von gave a well reasoned counter argument. I still think that the focus on lower speed limits more rigidly enforced is counter-productive in safety terms, but I shall leave this argument for the moment. I hope those offended will realise that all here are on the side of safer motoring.

[899cc]

I still think that the focus on lower speed limits more rigidly enforced is counter-productive in safety terms, but I shall leave this argument for the moment. I hope those offended will realise that all here are on the side of safer motoring.

This is one of the things I've been thinking about. If I were to break the speed limit regularly I could (assuming that I do it in the correct places) be a safer driver. My biggest danger is probably other people reactions to my 'slow' speeds. However, I do agree with rigid enforcement. If enforcement isn't so rigid then where are the lines drawn? Does the vicar get away with 40mph, but the butcher only get away with 35mph? If limits are enforced rigidly then people will know where they stand, and with cameras they know it's going to happen too. In my opinion speed is just a tiny part of the problems on our roads. The majority of speeders will drive badly at any speed. Where I live I see the same maniacs every day, and they're still on the roads.

[Gareth]

My biggest danger is probably other people reactions to my 'slow' speeds.

I have thought this many times. I'll give two examples.

First was yesterday when I travelling up the M40 from High Wycombe quite early in the morning, perhaps about 07:30. I counted a series of six 50 mph advisory speed limits on the central reservation matrix signs. As I continued past the first of these, I made extra effort to scan ahead as far as I could see, but all the time there was no additional hazard that could be seen.

I watched for brake lights from the vehicles ahead and into the distance, but there was nothing more than the usual amount you'd see on a free flowing motorway. I kept to about 60 mph, and was scared a few times when less observant drivers quickly caught up and swerved from lane 1 to lane 2 to avoid me.

Initially I thought it was because of some roadworks, in which a long section of hard shoulder was coned off but in which no-one was working. Further on I saw a couple of police vehicles with red and blue flashing lights, stopped half way up the hard shoulder of an off-slip. I'm certain the advisory speed limit wasn't for the roadworks, because shortly after passing the parked police cars, the next matrix sign was unlit.

Whatever the reason, a series of six advisory 50 mph speed limit signs was clearly inappropriate, (because the normal man in the street at that time and under those conditions felt that 80+ mph was appropriate), and keeping to that speed limit would have increased the overall level of danger. It's just as well that the speed limit was advisory, and that I wasn't obeying it.

My second example is from 1st June 2004, and I wrote about this in another forum:

I was particularly concerned [...] when travelling south down the A1(M) approaching the M25. There are roadworks at that junction, protected by a mandatory (I think) 40 mph temporary limit.

From just after junction 2, the motorway signs in the central reservation were displaying a temporary 40 mph maximum limit, yet the motorway seemed to be free of unusual hazards all the way down to the M25.

I slowed down to 55 mph, but felt distinctly unsafe while all the other vehicles sped past me, a goodly number swerving out into lane 2 at the last minute.

I'd say that many vehicles were travelling at between 80 and 90 mph, and this didn't seem to be a particularly unsafe speed given the conditions.

If I'd slowed down to 40 mph I fear I may not have made it home!

One comment that arose from the discussion on that other forum was that The Highway Code used to say which limits were advisory but in a typical bit of bureaucratic obfuscation removed the clarifying word some years ago. (There are many examples of the wording in the Code being changed to infer changes in the law, most of which have never happened).

Another comment was Just to add to the [... previous comments] (which are legally correct), while the matrix sign limits are indeed advisory rather than mandatory, if you have an accident while not complying with the advisory limit you can guarantee that you'll have the book thrown at you. So going faster than advisory speed limits when doing so is the safe course should only be done with great caution.

[JamesH]

The problem, IMO, with the matrix signs is that too often they cry wolf.

If you always knew that when you saw a **50** sign flashing you were a mile or so away from a hazard, that you would slow down for, negotiate, and then once the hazard is clear, the advice would **End** - that would be fine.

As it is, too many times do you see advisory speed limits on an empty motorway late at night, with no one around, only to see it **end** as bizarrely as it started. As a result, drivers tend to ignore them now.

When I see them, the radio gets turned down, observation heightened, and make sure I'm not doing anything in excess of the 70. Any further reduction in speed as in Gareth's example does seem to be counter-productive when there is no obvious hazard on a clear three or four lane stretch.

The ultimate example of this was when the matrix signs suggested that the two left lanes were closed and light traffic all dutifully moved towards lane three, anticipating cones, signs etc beyond the limit of vision around a sweeping left hand bend... Get round the corner, and there's nothing. Cue lots of traffic getting very confused and making breaks back for lane 1...

[Nigel]

I agree completely with the comments on matrix signs.

I was involved in a discussion with a met traffic officer on the IAM forum some time ago, he was constantly complaining of people ignoring these, and putting him in danger.

Hr did eventually, after I recieved some welcome backup from other members, come to realise just how much rubbish these signs spout.

The worst one recently I know of was near the M5, M50 junction, this was indicating 50 for three days !

[MGF]

I often accelerate before the NSL sign and some of my deceleration occurs after the 30mph sign if I think it safe to do so because I guess there is a 'buffer zone' and it is illogical that the metre one side of a sign is safe for 60 and the metre the other side is safe only for 30.

However my observer advised me not to do this and so recently i dutifully stuck to the 30 limit for 200 yards of straight open road with no driveways etc. The car following at a safe distance behind overtook me (safely but illegally). I had no problem with this however when on the NSL I caught up with him quite quickly.

In the scenario in the first post I would be reluctant to accelerate as it might antagonise the other driver and he may not use the limit points on corners to guage his speed going into them as I now do which menas even though his car isn't as quick he may well catch up with me and tailgate.



As for the 30 limit being extended as a 'buffer' wouldn't it make more sense to have a couple of hundred yards of a 40 zone instead to act as the buffer?





My understanding of matrix signs on motorways is that if the traffic controllers observe the traffic thickening up and so slowing down they activate reduced speed limits many miles behind to stop the faster traffic catching up and worsening the problem.

If this strategy works then the traffic that had to comply with the reduced speed limit will arrive at the slow point once the traffic has freed up again asking themselves why they had to slow down.

[7db]

As for the 30 limit being extended as a 'buffer' wouldn't it make more sense to have a couple of hundred yards of a 40 zone instead to act as the buffer?

Minimum recommended distance for a speed limit is half a mile.

[OneDragons]

If you want a 'buffer' of some description to ensure people dont speed through for instance a 30 sign, you dont need to move the speed limit sign but simply put up a '30 in 300...200...100 yards' signs up on the approach.

That way the speed limit is appropriate for the conditions and drivers are prompted to slow before the limit change.

Makes more sence to me anyway.

[TripleS]

If you want a 'buffer' of some description to ensure people dont speed through for instance a 30 sign, you dont need to move the speed limit sign but simply put up a '30 in 300...200...100 yards' signs up on the approach.

That way the speed limit is appropriate for the conditions and drivers are prompted to slow before the limit change.

Makes more sence to me anyway.

Makes sense to me too. I like that system and I think it is a reasonable solution to the problem.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BillZZR600]

We have them allready in Scotland (but not everywhere)

A Rectangular Sign with the 30 limit sign over black countdown bars like mway junction countdown (III II I ) then the actual posted limit roundal

[7db]

Frowned upon by DfT, I think. I hate them. Proper, visible signage is what is needed, not lots of countdown confusers.

[crr003]

Frowned upon by DfT, I think. I hate them. Proper, visible signage is what is needed, not lots of countdown confusers.

Interesting - I like them. In North Wales they are handy.

[7db]

Need to ensure that the sign (roundel with number inside) is not on a red circle or its illegal as confusingy similar to a road sign only to be placed where there is a restriction... Hencce the proliferation of black bordered speed signs in Wales and the greenies in Bristol.

More dastardly behaviour that will go unpunished and unrevoked, I fear.