Disregard of Speed Limits

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

The matrix has been posted before. I repeat my request.

I know, Mark. It was just a starting point.

[MGF]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

[MrToad]

This thread has stumbled into an area that might just be the key to advanced driving.

[Gareth]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

I'm curious about how seriously you think this, and what exactly you are meaning.

It seems to me that those who aren't interested in becoming better drivers wouldn't be persuaded by this thread to become interested. Mind you, they're not bothering to read anything discussed here, anyway.

Those who are casually interested, more as it being a means to an end, to perhaps be a safer and/or more confident driver, also wouldn't find it interesting. I would think this might include many or even most IAM/RoADAR members, and would certainly include those who desire the certainty of rules to obey.

But those of us who are interested in it for its own sake are more likely to find it fascinating, since it goes to the heart and then beyond the process of becoming better at the driving skill, and moves into the philosophical realm to discuss how we are as people.

[vonhosen]

VH, I appreciate your effort in writing that long post.

If it is true that you drive how you are, and that you are how you drive, do the 3 & 4 aspects not become apparent through a candidate's driving? Don't the 3 & 4 aspects change in the traditional environment as a result of learning to implement by rote a methodical procedure for driving?

That depends on the relationship.
If somebody comes to me they generally have a preconceived idea of what I'm looking for because of the organisation I'm in & what they've heard about it. They try to fit into what their preconceived idea is. You are only likely to see the true them where they feel they have the freedom to be themselves & are operating in an non-judgemental arena. There is no power imbalance in that arena either. Outside that you'll only see who they truly are as a driver is if you could observe them remotely when they are out driving on their own. So what you have to do is work on their values/beliefs so that they'll make the right choices & they'll be aware of what makes them make poor choices so that they can guard against it.

All of this is not something that sits naturally because of my make up. I was brought up on being told what to do & how to do it, not just in my driving but in my life. I'm not a people person, I can mix, but I like my time on my own doing my own things. I'm not a natural communicator on an emotional level. I'm pretty selfish naturally & quite cold emotionally.

When my wife has had a hard day & is stressed she wants to sit down & talk about her experience. She off loads her problems. She doesn't want answers, she wants me to listen & share how she feels, to empathise. When she has gone through that she doesn't want me to tell her what she should do, she wants to have a conversation during which she'll work out what she can. My natural way would be to give her my answer to what I see as her problem, that's what's always happened to me after all, but that's not what she wants & it will frustrate her further. She is a good people person, she loves being around people, she gains people's confidence quickly because she can listen to them & empathise with them, she is supportive & non judgemental. She is emotionally intelligent & aware.

[Horse]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

Most people don't care about it anyway, so I don't see the point of your post.

If it's actually you saying 'I don't understand', then admit that and ask.

If you are saying you don't agree, then justify an alternative.

[trashbat]

Does this stuff crop up to any significant degree anywhere in civilian driving? For example I mean in something like Masters, or in other countries, or in say how the authorities communicate with young drivers to try and reduce the casualty rates.

Why it would put anyone off, I don't understand. There's a piece in the opening section of Roadcraft that tackles the subject of mental state and attitude.

[Horse]

Yes, at 'L' level the DSA are encouraging a move towards a more coaching-oriented model rather than monkey see monkey do, without understanding.

Some of Von's post is very similar to sports coaching psychology. The general principles will also work with other areas of personal development.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

When my wife has had a hard day & is stressed she wants to sit down & talk about her experience. She off loads her problems. She doesn't want answers, she wants me to listen & share how she feels, to empathise. When she has gone through that she doesn't want me to tell her what she should do, she wants to have a conversation during which she'll work out what she can. My natural way would be to give her my answer to what I see as her problem, that's what's always happened to me after all, but that's not what she wants & it will frustrate her further.

This issue is discussed in the first chapter of that inanely named book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". Surprisingly insightful, once you get past the silly title and the Amurrican language. Ever since I read it I've stopped trying to offer answers when listening to a lady's troubles.

[dombooth]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

Fully agree, hasn't this put a few people off this forum?

Dom

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

As with Gareth, I'm interested to know what our (now two) dissenters find unappealing about this thread. As Tony said, it seems to have got very close to exactly what advanced driving is all about - 1 part skill, 9 parts attitude. I'm interested to know what you'd rather be discussing instead?

[MGF]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

Most people don't care about it anyway, so I don't see the point of your post.

If it's actually you saying 'I don't understand', then admit that and ask.

If you are saying you don't agree, then justify an alternative.

The point is simple. The person who started this thread has been pushed out of the forum by the same intransigence he has was accused of.

The thread has been taken over by a longwinded discussion on -with respect to Von - statin' the bleedin' obvious.

If you add therapy to teaching, coaching, instruction etc you will get better results. It is arrogant to suggest that those who are not interested in it are unable to comprehend it or that they will not be put off by it. The initial discussion was far more relevant to those not involved in instruction but apparently it is off-limits.

Is it possible to be interested in improving your own driving without feeling a sense of superiority over others?

It is as naive to believe that therapy has any practical use in the amateur environment of IAM and RoSPA.

Just as it is naive to believe that we can make millions of drivers concentrate on the task of driving through education, thereby drastically reducing the need for maximum speed limits.

If you are an ADI i would expect a lot of what von is writing about to be part of your teaching.

That is why I disagree with the point that whether or not a disregard for speed limits is compatible with advanced driving is limited to the opinions of the amateur organisations.

As for an alternative, we have one. professional instruction or amateur. Don't expect too much from the latter.

[michael769]

This thread is enough to put most people off advanced driving.

Fully agree, hasn't this put a few people off this forum?

Dom

To be honest I just want this thread to end now - it must rank as the most unhelpful and circular discussion ever held here.

Most people don't care about it anyway, so I don't see the point of your post.

But some people do get curious and consider giving it a go. May never follow through (took me 10 years to follow through on my own good intentions). But anyone in that category reading this thread would inevitably decide it was not for them.

[7db]

I'm not sure I agree that this is irrelevant and I can't know how it is perceived by people coming here with no AD knowledge.

Far from being well understood, as MGF observes, actually this is somewhat cutting-edge in terms of instruction. Von's passion for the subject appears to come from the fact that he is pushing hard to make changes to an organisation which doesn't accept that this stuff is obvious. The DSA is just about coming round to this point of view. People like Don Palmer and John Whitmore were years ahead of their time when they started going on about this stuff and integrating it into coaching practice.

I'm sorry the OP decided to leave the discussion. I suspect his motives were impure, but in no way was he pushed out (unless the mods did so) there simple isn't a mechanism for pushing. I think it has developed into one of the more insightful threads on driving. Indeed it has remained admirably on-topic for a 13-pager. The issue about speeding is directly related to the four steps discussed:-

- I am pressing the accelerator too hard to keep in the limit
- I am having a quick drive
- I'm in a hurry today
- I don't believe in keeping to the limit

Furthermore I think it provides a useful framework for our own self-criticism to understand where our development has stalled and what we need to do to improve:-

- I had a bad corner
- I'm having a bad drive
- I'm having a bad day
- I'm a bad person

[GJD]

Blah blah blah... from somewhere inside his own rectum.

Oh FFS! I wish someone would push you out of the bloody forum sometimes.