Box Junction query

[Slink_Pink]

I have a particular box junction that I encounter frequently during rush hour. I've made a map here, where black = my route, solid red = queued traffic at lights, blue/green = alternate feeds to traffic queue, dashed red = small proportion of blue/green traffic NOT joining the main queue.

1. I come round the central curve, in a queue (black line). Traffic lights turn red, causing queues to build back from the lights (solid red line).
2. This particular box junction is well observed and a break in queue is always left for the box, so it continues queuing from the other side of the box.
3. At this point, traffic in the middle curve can begin to move across, as there is usually about a further ~20s of red phase for the queued traffic.
4. The sticking point is the trickle of traffic taking the left hand (red dashed line). The view is variable through two lanes of traffic as such your exit across the box may look clear when you enter, but you can't simply drive straight across without pausing to check the traffic flow from the left.

If your timing is good, you can get a straight run. If it's less good, you are left stopped in the box waiting for a gap. If it's really bad, you're stuck in the box when queued traffic changes to green phase!

Any tips?

[GJD]

I've made a map here

Just checking...

That link goes to a Google sign in page. Did you mean that to happen?

[7db]

If your goal is to exit the box by lane-changing to the left, then don't.

[michael769]

If your goal is to exit the box by lane-changing to the left, then don't.

if I understand the map correctly I believe that the goal is to emerge from a road junction by turning right and then immediate left.

I am familiar with the location in question. Realistically what you are doing is the only way to make progress through there, and is I suspect what was intended by the council.

The prohibition on stopping on a box junction only apples where you are stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles, it is permissible to wait for moving vehicles on a box junction. (As an aside the markings in question are not a permitted variant of the box junction marking so it is arguable if it is enforceable at all).

As for advice? Proceed with caution and look out not only for what you expect but also what you do not expect (think bike)

[Custom24]

If your goal is to exit the box by lane-changing to the left, then don't.

Huh?

OP - Anyway, it seems to me that the box junction is there to help you to do what you are trying to do - i.e. follow the black route.

And there does seem to be a get-out in the law to support this.

http://moneyboxjunction.wordpress.com/t ... f-the-law/

"the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles"

Since the reason you'd have to stop is not because of the presence of stationary vehicles, this seems to support you.

No idea if this law is current - others with more time than I will be along.

Edit - crossed posts with above

[7db]

That's a generous interpretation of the rules as written.

[Slink_Pink]

I've made a map here

Just checking...

That link goes to a Google sign in page. Did you mean that to happen?

I've tried to fix it but to no end. It's supposed to be set up to allow anyone with the link to view it (no sign-in required), but I also just get the sign-in page if I'm not already signed in. Try this instead no markup.

To describe, I'm traveling southbound on the A804, right-most/inside lane, into the curve round the middle grassy bit, heading in the general direction of North Street / Woodlands Road.
The queuing traffic occurs on North street, back from the lights where it crosses the A804. The feeder traffic into this is alternately from North street and Sauchiehall Street.

[michael769]

but I also just get the sign-in page if I'm not already signed in.

It allows me to view it without signing in. I wonder if there is some kind of browser compatibility issue?

[michael769]

That's a generous interpretation of the rules as written.

If one does not take a generous interpretation then one must conclude that the markings are an unlawful obstruction of the Road as any strictness would have to apply equally to the statutory requirement that the markings meet the specifications and limits set out in TSRGD which those most certainly do not.

[Custom24]

That's a generous interpretation of the rules as written.

What would you do, then? I didn't understand your previous reply. The OP cannot see if the exit from the box will remain clear before he enters it.

[TR4ffic]

To describe, I'm traveling southbound on the A804, right-most/inside lane, into the curve round the middle grassy bit, heading in the general direction of North Street / Woodlands Road.
The queuing traffic occurs on North street, back from the lights where it crosses the A804. The feeder traffic into this is alternately from North street and Sauchiehall Street.
...
If your timing is good, you can get a straight run. If it's less good, you are left stopped in the box waiting for a gap. If it's really bad, you're stuck in the box when queued traffic changes to green phase!

Any tips?

Ignoring any argument as to whether the box junction/markings are legal or not, I'd say you were OK to stop within the boxed section whilst waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the left aiming to go up North Street. Your exit from the boxed section is clear and that is the main thing.

It is no different, IMO, from a box junction at a cross roads - If you are turning right, providing your exit to the right is clear, you may enter the box junction and wait for a gap in oncoming traffic before making your right turn.

If, however, North Street was backed up with a queue of traffic the other side of the boxed section, you would have to obey the box junction and wait this side of it, on the curve.

[Slink_Pink]

Thanks for the comments. Mostly I have no issue with this as experience has shown that careful observation of the queue build up and general traffic flow usually revels a suitable gap to proceed. Curiously, I have also passed through the same junction a few times outside of rush hour and it's substantially more difficult because the crossflow traffic is more continuous across all three lanes therefore making the chances of emerging few and far between.

[7db]

That's a generous interpretation of the rules as written.

If one does not take a generous interpretation then one must conclude that the markings are an unlawful obstruction of the Road as any strictness would have to apply equally to the statutory requirement that the markings meet the specifications and limits set out in TSRGD which those most certainly do not.

Unless the SoS has given permission for them. Very common for non-standard marking in London. Not sure about elsewhere.

[7db]

That's a generous interpretation of the rules as written.

What would you do, then? I didn't understand your previous reply. The OP cannot see if the exit from the box will remain clear before he enters it.

Sorry I misread the map and the OPs route - thought the wind was coming down the board. Too many arrows. I thought he was changing lane to exit the YBJ out of the side.

There's a specific written exemption in the regulations for waiting for oncoming traffic when turning right, which suggests that the reliance on moving traffic rather than stationary traffic is one which is generous -- else why write such an exemption into the rules. I'm not saying that you wouldn't get such a generous interpretation at PATAS -- my experience there is that sensible driving creates some leeway in interpretation and TR4ffic's advice seems generally sensible to me. You might even choose to rely on the right-turn exemption written into the regs. It's not the standard interpretation but hey.

I'd replace that whole system with a KEEP CLEAR marking instead.

[Ancient]

I have never understood the point of YBJs anyway: Surely you don't enter any junction where you can see your exit is blocked by stationary vehicles? To do so risks obstructing traffic crosing your route.

So what makes YBJs different/necessary?