Teach me to be a safe driver.

[TripleS]

Albert Einstein was a brilliant mathematician and theoretical physicist -- it's unclear what credibility should be adduced from the suspect adding of his name to quotations about everything from politics to psychology - Winston Churchill.

Says a politcian

...or was he a statesman: wise, skilled and respected, rather than being merely a politician?

[7db]

You can only find true enlightenment by seeing your words come out of the mouths of others - HH Dalai Lama

[TripleS]

You can only find true enlightenment by seeing your words come out of the mouths of others - HH Dalai Lama

But does that not depend on others agreeing with us? If it does, I'm not often getting a sense of enlightenment, and I could do with a bit more of it. I guess I'm misunderstanding something here... It happens!

Anyhow, interesting stuff again. I'll pick up what I can from it, ta.

Incidentally, thinking back to the closure of the "Disregard of Speed Limits" thread, I'd like to offer a bit of 'enlightenment' in this way:

Periodically we get a bit at cross purposes with each other when we are putting forward different thoughts and ideas, because some of these could be in direct conflict, or there is some degree of incompatibility, so we dispute things.

The way I look at it is to picture this forum as a bunch of us sitting round a big table, and placing our various contributions on the table in some visible form; it's not just the spoken word. Now, rather than having contributions rejected and removed from the table and being, in effect, thrown in the rubbish bin, I would rather they remain on the table, in order that others may come along later and quietly review what is on the table, noting anything they see as likely to be helpful to them. What may look like worthless rubbish today, might turn out to be quite useful to somebody tomorrow.

Remember, it's a big table, so let's use the available space.

[nigelc]

Looking at this thread I see that it can be broken down into several issues:

How to teach drivers initially, how to improve existing drivers and how to improve your own driving.

As an ex-lecturer I despair every time I see strict suggestions of how teaching should be done. People are of different abilities and learn in different ways, there is no single correct method of teaching/learning. It’s good to see that on here, at least, I often read that mentors evaluate the driver before making suggestions. Leave it to politicians and they want a one size fits all.

Some people are naturally logical thinkers and teaching them the basics along with giving some good pointers they can react to most situations in a safe well thought out manner and use every new experience as an opportunity for learning. (Most people on here fall into this category). Others will need strict guidelines and will be stressed when a new situation arises because nobody has told them what to do.

The only slight paradox I’ve seen in this thread and one I come across almost daily on the road is what to do with the tailgater. Adhering to the speed limit, maybe leaving a larger gap between you and the car in front if there is one, only seems to add to the tailgater’s frustration. Sometimes this leads to the tailgater taking unnecessary risks or road rage and could lead to them taking action that involves another innocent party. I wonder if I could walk away from such an incident saying “Well I was keeping to the law” knowing that is what provoked the incident. I try to let such drivers past at the earliest opportunity but how do we ever get through to them?

[7db]

how do we ever get through to them?

I don't think you can change someone's driving from outside the car. It's hard enough to change from inside the car.
You can't get through to them.

Thankfully - it's not our job to get through to them. It's not our job to straighten the bends in the road, it's not our job to flatten the blind crests. I think our job as drivers is to treat all these hazards -- conscious and inanimate with the same disinterested approach. Stuck in traffic, being tailgated, approaching a roundabout, flying into a blind bend -- these are all things which we can handle at a technical level if we will allow ourselves to do so.

Confusing our goal of safety with educating a (remote) driver is a misguided task. (And I'm not for a moment suggesting that you were proposing that it was anything other than such)/

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

The only slight paradox I’ve seen in this thread and one I come across almost daily on the road is what to do with the tailgater. Adhering to the speed limit, maybe leaving a larger gap between you and the car in front if there is one, only seems to add to the tailgater’s frustration. Sometimes this leads to the tailgater taking unnecessary risks or road rage and could lead to them taking action that involves another innocent party.

This is indeed one of the worst situations to be in. The more patient you get, the less they seem to understand.

[revian]

Incidentally, thinking back to the closure of the "Disregard of Speed Limits" thread, I'd like to offer a bit of 'enlightenment' in this way:

Periodically we get a bit at cross purposes with each other when we are putting forward different thoughts and ideas, because some of these could be in direct conflict, or there is some degree of incompatibility, so we dispute ...

Remember, it's a big table, so let's use the available space.

Is it or is it not that for the forum to work well a forum equivalent of Level 4 of the grid is actually the most important? Attitude determines how we contribute, how we listen and how we learn. ( in the Grid I don't think the levels are separable and if anything mostly upside down)

Ian

[7db]

I didn't write that.

[revian]

Oops ... Mis edit 7db... Sorry...was TripleS!

[waremark]

Thread title: 'Teach me to be a safe driver'.

I would never have asked that, I would have asked something more like 'teach me to be a good driver'. If asked what I understood by 'good driver', safety might have been in there, but not particularly high up the list. For me safety has been a by-product, not the main objective. If safety was my highest priority, I would not drive what might be seen by a Brake supporter as dangerous cars on dangerous roads at dangerous speeds (if they could recognise that a speed within the speed limit was dangerous!). I certainly would not take part in my other main hobby - flying gliders.

For how many of you was safety the main or even a major motivation for improving your driving?

Incidentally, I have always asked new associates to tell me why they are undertaking IAM training; in future I have been persuaded by this discussion to probe a bit more deeply.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Incidentally, I have always asked new associates to tell me why they are undertaking IAM training; in future I have been persuaded by this discussion to probe a bit more deeply.

I ask this question too, and get a number of different inputs (not black and white replies). Among them are:

• "I want to be a better driver". Asked to define this I get a number of sub-answers
  
  • "I like to do things well, I want to drive better" - we try to expand this and generally get to something they like about being systematic and consistent
  • "I have picked up bad habits over the years"
  • "I drive for work and I want to be safe and less stressed" - a paraphrase of a few I can remember, but not accurately enough to separate them.
• "I want to drive better for my family" - I think this one does generally relate closely to safety, or the perception of it from their passengers. These are the people who end up driving faster, but more predictably, on the whole.
• "I have lost my confidence as a driver" - Generally through lack of mileage, or some traumatic incident.
• "To further my experience and career" - from the ADIs. Don't knock them, we make them into tutors!

[Gareth]

For how many of you was safety the main or even a major motivation for improving your driving?

Not me. I only ever wanted to be a better driver, without any clear idea of what that meant.

In fact I outsourced my thinking about what being better meant, to John Lyon. While seeing him drive my car for perhaps 15 or so minutes knew that I didn't need or care to put words to 'better'; I just wanted to be able to drive more like he was doing.

[TripleS]

The only slight paradox I’ve seen in this thread and one I come across almost daily on the road is what to do with the tailgater. Adhering to the speed limit, maybe leaving a larger gap between you and the car in front if there is one, only seems to add to the tailgater’s frustration. Sometimes this leads to the tailgater taking unnecessary risks or road rage and could lead to them taking action that involves another innocent party.

This is indeed one of the worst situations to be in. The more patient you get, the less they seem to understand.

This seems to keep coming up and in all honesty I must say I do not suffer significant problems with tailgaters. I don't think I do anything very different from what is normally advised, but something seems to get the desired result. If I knew what was getting the good result for me I'd like to be able to explain it, but at the moment I don't, so I can't.

[TripleS]

Thread title: 'Teach me to be a safe driver'.

I would never have asked that, I would have asked something more like 'teach me to be a good driver'. If asked what I understood by 'good driver', safety might have been in there, but not particularly high up the list. For me safety has been a by-product, not the main objective. If safety was my highest priority, I would not drive what might be seen by a Brake supporter as dangerous cars on dangerous roads at dangerous speeds (if they could recognise that a speed within the speed limit was dangerous!). I certainly would not take part in my other main hobby - flying gliders.

For how many of you was safety the main or even a major motivation for improving your driving?

Incidentally, I have always asked new associates to tell me why they are undertaking IAM training; in future I have been persuaded by this discussion to probe a bit more deeply.

That's my feeling too. Being a good driver brings a high level of safety in any case, but in my scale of values it's simply in there along with other elements. I seek what I feel to be a good mix of ingredients, a sensible overall balance.

[7db]

So not just a case of exploring what a person's values are, but actively changing them. Moral guidance, no less.