Application of rule 145?

[vonhosen]

Where someone behind is simply sitting behind waiting to pass & I am making progress at the limit (ie they are not displaying a threat to my safety) I won't be pulling into a lay-by at the first opportunity to let them by & then do the same at the next lay-by to let the next lot through either. I don't judge it to be necessary or selfish to not let people by in such circumstances.

I'm glad you talked about judgement here, because this is exactly the point I was trying to raise. Most often it is OK to continue travelling at the speed limit at the head of a long queue, because the drivers behind accept what you are doing. Sometimes that is not the case.

My contention is that an advanced driver should be aware enough about what is happening behind, to consider and make a judgement about this, and if necessary, find somewhere to pull over and let the faster traffic past.

Its all too easy to say to yourself that because I'm travelling at the speed limit, I don't need to pay attention to the following vehicles, and I don't need to consider whether to yield the road to them.

I have no argument with that.
Simply in the vast majority of cases though apeasing someone behind by manufacturing a passing for them is not necessary.

[TripleS]

That was a terrible incident, but not the sort of thing we need to dwell on in terms of such a thing being likely to affect us.

In the case referred to by StressedDave, the naughty person rammed the vehicle in front more than once, so is the exception rather than the rule.

Yes, very much the exception, scarcely worth thinking about IMHO. If we were to dwell on incidents of that magnitude and live in constant fear of becoming involved in such a thing, driving would become unbearable. I vote for concentrating my attention of things that confront us on a daily basis, as they pose much more of a threat overall.

However when a vehicle approaches very close behind with the intention of intimidating you, are you happy to trust their judgement to get so close and no further? That is, can you trust that the level of their skill is high enough not to overshoot slightly and actually hit you?

Yes I am, and yes I do, respectively. IMHO it is very unlikely that I would be hit from behind in such a situation, and if it were to happen the speed differential and impact would almost certainly be quite small. I repeat my standard advice - if I might be so bold - that we should do things steadily and logically, avoiding anything sudden and provocative. Concentrate on what's going on in front of you and deal with that leisurely.

What happens if one the vehicles you are overtaking suddenly pulls out while you've got someone extremely close behind? Best to try to avoid these situations if at all possible.

OK, not a pleasant prospect, but probably manageable if you're alert and your speed differential to those you're passing is fairly small.

This is rather more of a problem for less experienced drivers, and those of a nervous disposition, who tend to brake when they feel scared, drastically raising the danger and the chances of a bad outcome.

Agreed. I understand their discomfort would be greater than mine.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[7db]

[...There's something about looking at a 18 inch wide Ford Fiesta (and that is not an exaggeration) that concentrates the mind beautifully about how people can be a lot more agressive when surrounded by a tonne or so of thin sheet metal. As for it being an isolated incident, it might have been in terms of effect but I can guarantee it happens a lot more often than you'd think. Hell, I've even seen cars run off the road by London buses in such circumstances

There is no perfect rule in these circumstances, but the fact of the matter remains that if it is safe to do so (and these things happen on dual carriageways rather than single track) I will move left and let the driver behind have the accident with the car in front. I rarely will use laybys and other such road features to do the same but I'm never averse to encouraging the overtake if it lets me develop a nice safety space around me. I'd rather do something 'not advanced' and live than be both right and dead.

Now look at it another way - the person trying to get past might have a perfectly valid reason (to him at least - e.g. a dying relative) to want to make progress, even though it may be a crime under the RTA to make such progress. Do you want to be responsible for them getting so het up that they make an error of judgement and take you and others with them?

I recently had a chronic tailgating incident in the 7, which doesn't really afford enough metal to generate false confidence. It was scary, and infuriating. The details are well documented on another forum, but at exactly the 50 speed limit (passing through a Gatso), with the lane next to me blocked with traffic, I had a nutter about 3 ft from me in a huge Jag, flashing and waving.

Obviously I backed off to create space and braking distance but this sent him into a wild rage. Worse, as I had backed off, lane two traffic now sped up and passed and I couldn't drop in for lack of visibility past this chap.

Eventually he dropped past in lane two, veered out in front of me and brake tested me (telegraphed, fortunately). It was a horrible experience, but short of taking off like a stung greyhound, I think I did more or less the right thing.

Unfortunately for the tailgater, I was chatting that evening with a Sergeant in the Met garage for that area who very kindly took the details for his parade book to "examine his standard of driving" should they come across him again.

[PeteG]

"telegraphed"?

[TripleS]

"telegraphed"?

If you're a keen and experienced driver I believe it is possible to develop an ability to read the body language of another vehicle, and the mentality of the driver, and anticipate what they are likely to do. You can sometimes recognise a pattern emerging and thereby take steps to protect yourself. Be aware that your assessment might be wrong at times, but if you allow yourself sufficient time and space you can cope with most things fairly comfortably.

There will, however, always be new tricks to learn. HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Lady Godiva]

But isn't all of the above a slight misinterpretation of what Gareth was asking initially.

My impression of his question was the following scenario:

You are travelling on a single carriageway. You are travelling at the top of the limit (60mph). There is a queue of traffic behind you. They are not displaying aggressive or dangerous tactics, they are just a queue. Gareth is suggesting that in that scenario you should pull over and stop, for example in a layby, to let the queue go past. Then when the queue has gone past (all now breaking the law by travelling over the speed limit) you pull back out and carry on again until the scenario repeats itself some miles down the road.

Not a dual carriageway. Not agressive driving from behind. Just a normal queue of traffic.

I've made my position clear, and the more I read these posts, the less I believe that anyone on here can seriously suggest it is the correct thing to do, or that they would even consider it. I would go so far as to day that no-one does this, and to try and justify it with the Highway Code is a gross misrepresentation of the intent.

Jusy my opinion obviously, but I do not think that anyone does what Gareth is suggesting in his original post, and I do not think anyone genuinely thinks it is the correct, or advanced, thing to do. I would be very interested to know what a Class 1 examiner would do say on an Advanced Test if the Associate did this.

[Gareth]

You are travelling on a single carriageway. You are travelling at the top of the limit (60mph). There is a queue of traffic behind you. They are not displaying aggressive or dangerous tactics, they are just a queue.

If the driver at the head of the queue is not being pressed, and there are no anxious drivers further back in the queue about to take a chance on a dodgy overtake, then everything is fine.

Gareth is suggesting that in that scenario you should pull over and stop, for example in a layby, to let the queue go past.

I'm suggesting that the driver at the head of the queue should be aware about what is going on behind, and if necessary take action to avoid a build up of danger. Not just the vehicle immediately behind, but as far back as can be seen.

I would also suggest that even when the driver at the head of the queue is not being pressed, if a large queue builds up it indicates that a number of other drivers wish to travel faster, and it would be a kindness on the part of the driver at the head of the queue to let them by if it doesn't cost too much inconvenience.

I'm suggesting that some drivers sit at the front of a queue with the equivalent of a red mist attitude to the following road users, and this is not a good situation.

Then when the queue has gone past (all now breaking the law by travelling over the speed limit) you pull back out and carry on again until the scenario repeats itself some miles down the road.

As various people have already said, what other drivers choose to do isn't my concern. They might have good reasons for breaking the speed limit. My only concern is the overall level of safety and what is happening around me.

[7db]

"telegraphed"?

Let's just say that I had already snuck through his blind spot into lane two by the time his brake lights came on.

Sometimes it's easy to read the other driver's mind. But often it's so empty that you can get teribly lonely in there...

[TripleS]

But isn't all of the above a slight misinterpretation of what Gareth was asking initially.

My impression of his question was the following scenario:

You are travelling on a single carriageway. You are travelling at the top of the limit (60mph). There is a queue of traffic behind you. They are not displaying aggressive or dangerous tactics, they are just a queue. Gareth is suggesting that in that scenario you should pull over and stop, for example in a layby, to let the queue go past. Then when the queue has gone past (all now breaking the law by travelling over the speed limit) you pull back out and carry on again until the scenario repeats itself some miles down the road.

Not a dual carriageway. Not agressive driving from behind. Just a normal queue of traffic.

I've made my position clear, and the more I read these posts, the less I believe that anyone on here can seriously suggest it is the correct thing to do, or that they would even consider it. I would go so far as to say that no-one does this, and to try and justify it with the Highway Code is a gross misrepresentation of the intent.

Just my opinion obviously, but I do not think that anyone does what Gareth is suggesting in his original post, and I do not think anyone genuinely thinks it is the correct, or advanced, thing to do. I would be very interested to know what a Class 1 examiner would do say on an Advanced Test if the Associate did this.

Yes OK, I wandered away from the original SC scenario, and started making references that were more applicable to DC and motorway driving.

Anyhow, believe it or not, if I'm in tootling mode, i.e. 60 mph max., I tend to be especially mindful of the wishes of a following driver and will help them to overtake, and this might even take the form of me diving briefly into a lay-by or similar out of the way spot if I find something convenient. The fact that the other guy is prepared to exceed the speed limit is not my concern. I ain't a Traffic Officer!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

if I'm in tootling mode, i.e. 60 mph max., I tend to be especially mindful of the wishes of a following driver and will help them to overtake, and this might even take the form of me diving briefly into a lay-by or similar out of the way spot if I find something convenient.

Perhaps it is best to inject some reality into this; on many rural NSL SC roads it is hard to stay dead on the speed limit, and the more likely scenario is that a driver is working to a capped 60, slowing down for bends and other hazards, then accelerating back up to their cruising speed as the view opens up.

Someone who doesn't read the road very well, whose entry speed into corners is too high and brakes late as a consequence, (perhaps mid-corner), and who doesn't use all the acceleration of the vehicle when clearing a hazard can easily be holding up other drivers who also do not wish to break the speed limit, but who given a clear road will quickly pull away from the less experienced driver in front.

Of course many following drivers haven't been taught the skills necessary to overtake, and it really is necessary to move off the carriageway to enable them to pass.

Sometimes (rarely) I've amused myself by very gradually slowing down to make it easier for the following driver to overtake, and I've been astounded just how slow I need to go before they will overtake - if a suitable lay-by is available then it is much the better solution.

I only do this when the following driver has demonstrated intent to make better progress by maintaining a contact position for an extended distance yet has not managed the overtake despite some very good opportunities.

I've even seen this once on an NSL DC where I slowed to 40 mph before the other driver would make use of the mainly clear lane 2 to stop being up my chuff.

[Lady Godiva]

You are travelling on a single carriageway. You are travelling at the top of the limit (60mph). There is a queue of traffic behind you. They are not displaying aggressive or dangerous tactics, they are just a queue.

If the driver at the head of the queue is not being pressed, and there are no anxious drivers further back in the queue about to take a chance on a dodgy overtake, then everything is fine.

Gareth is suggesting that in that scenario you should pull over and stop, for example in a layby, to let the queue go past.

I'm suggesting that the driver at the head of the queue should be aware about what is going on behind, and if necessary take action to avoid a build up of danger. Not just the vehicle immediately behind, but as far back as can be seen.

I would also suggest that even when the driver at the head of the queue is not being pressed, if a large queue builds up it indicates that a number of other drivers wish to travel faster, and it would be a kindness on the part of the driver at the head of the queue to let them by if it doesn't cost too much inconvenience.

I'm suggesting that some drivers sit at the front of a queue with the equivalent of a red mist attitude to the following road users, and this is not a good situation.

Then when the queue has gone past (all now breaking the law by travelling over the speed limit) you pull back out and carry on again until the scenario repeats itself some miles down the road.

As various people have already said, what other drivers choose to do isn't my concern. They might have good reasons for breaking the speed limit. My only concern is the overall level of safety and what is happening around me.

Gareth - believe me, I'm not being pedantic, but I'm simply trying to understand exactly what you are asking. When I read your first post, your question seems to be about a simple line of traffic, just a queue, no agressive driving. If it's this, then I still think you shouldn't pull over into a layby. No red mist, no ognoring other drivers, just simple straighforward common sense driving.

Not only that, i don't think others do it, even those that claim to do so.

IF you are talking about a clearly dangerous tailgating driver, or someone who is clearly overtaking dangerously,then yes, get them out of the way. But that wasn't your original post. Or have I got it wrong.

P.S. Gareth - I've just re read the above, and it sounds like I'm being deliberately argumentative. Honestly I'm not, I genuinely can't believe that drivers do this, or think it is the correct thing todo. It may be just me, which is what I'm trying tofind out.

P.P.S. I accept my lowly and ill informed position as a newbie IAM member. But I would love to hear form a Class 1 (or equivalent) what they would do on an IAM test in the above scenario i.e. striahgt line of traffic, normal queue, at the speed limit, no agression, should the head car pull over and stop in a layby during the test.

Regards
Sally
Not scoring points, just rying to learn every day.

Edited to apologise for the spelling mistakes; I am rushing to get everyone's tea ready.

[TripleS]

....I still think you shouldn't pull over into a layby. No red mist, no ignoring other drivers, just simple straighforward common sense driving.

Not only that, I don't think others do it, even those that claim to do so.

Well then Sally you would in that case (quite unnecessarily) be mistaken, and I can assure you I am not the only one who will occasionally move off the road briefly to allow someone else to overtake, especially if it enables me to get rid of a tiresome tailgater.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[PeteG]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Never heard the use of the word 'telegraph' like that before.

[Lady Godiva]

....I still think you shouldn't pull over into a layby. No red mist, no ignoring other drivers, just simple straighforward common sense driving.

Not only that, I don't think others do it, even those that claim to do so.

Well then Sally you would in that case (quite unnecessarily) be mistaken, and I can assure you I am not the only one who will occasionally move off the road briefly to allow someone else to overtake, especially if it enables me to get rid of a tiresome tailgater.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

No, I'm sorry Dave, but that is not what I am saying. Firstly (although it is your second comment) I am not talking about tiresome tailgaters. They are a different subject, and need to be handled accordingly.

I am talking about a situation where there is a normal (not tailgating, not agressive, not threatening, not tiresome) queue of traffic. For example, 10 cars on a single carriageway, all spaced out accordingly, all travelling at 60mph. In those circumstances I didn't think anyone at the front would pull over and stop to let them pass, if they are travelling at the limit.

Clearly you would, and that is your right. So, I will amend my beliefs to be that only an extremely small minority will do it. Please note I am not talking about slowing down to facilitate an overtake, or taking a LH position, I'm talking about pulling over and stopping, to allow the ful queue to go past.

I was so surprised that drivers on here were saying they would do it, I wondered if it was just me, so I've asked a large group of drivers (not formally 'Advanced', although some are) if they would do it. Not one single driver would do what you are suggesting. Not one. All of them recognised there were circumstances where it is wise to get rid of a tailgater, or an agressive line of traffic, but they accepted we were not discussing that situation.

So, we learn something new every day. I guess I've just been unlucky that I have never ever seen the situation you suggest happens. I've seen slow drivers pull over. I've seen drivers get rid of 'poor' drivers behind. I've seen drivers position such that an overtake is facilitated. But never have I seen the full pull over and stop to let traffic through that was just driving along normally.

I don't suppose there is a class 1 that can comment on it from an 'Advanced' test point of view is there (IAM/Rospa, etc). I was thinking about becoming an Observer, and I am genuinely confused by this, and I would want to offer 'correct' advice to an Associate.

[Gareth]

To avoid misunderstandings, let me clarify what I've been saying.

To set the scene a little, I'd been thinking about the discussion about leaving a 30 mph limit to enter an NSL, and where people were talking about whether to speed up slightly as they approached the NSL. I started thinking about the general case where a driver is keeping to the speed limit and as a result a queue builds up behind.

I was struck by the thought that it is not the responsibility of the driver at the head of the queue to ensure that the drivers behind keep to the speed limit. I wondered about what kind of dangers can be bought about by rigidly keeping to the speed limit with no consideration for what might be happening in the queue behind.

In my second message in this discussion, I wrote that people driving at the head of a queue who do not give consideration to this are potentially increasing danger for all road users in the vicinity. Ensuing discussion bought out that people in queues get frustrated and sometimes, (infrequently), do something unsafe.

I view one characteristic of an advanced driver to be courtesy and consideration to other road users, and it was from this point of view I have been saying that an advanced driver should try to be aware of potential flashpoints such as may occur in the queue behind, and if needs be, do something about it that hopefully will diffuse the situation.

I am surprised that anyone would say that it is unreasonable to consider potential danger from the queue behind. I really don't see that driving at the current speed limit is reason enough to completely disregard this possibility. However I accept that the risk is probably quite small and so perhaps it would tend to get pushed to the bottom of the inputs to the driving plan.