Steering - again, what should be taught

[zadocbrown]

The premise being that choice is so important that the environment in which the learning occurs is largely irrelevant to whether choice is given. That premise can just as easily be labelled as silly/daft/dogma/etc.

Many of us believe that choice is important for effective learning.

[vonhosen]

The premise being that choice is so important that the environment in which the learning occurs is largely irrelevant to whether choice is given. That premise can just as easily be labelled as silly/daft/dogma/etc.

The argument isn't that the environment is irrelevant, it's that choice & responsibility for the outcomes of it are an important part of the learning environment.

[7db]

Don't mention steering unless there is a problem with it. If there is, choose from the above.

This.

I don't think I've ever seen a driver where the top thing I've wanted to mention is the steering technique.

Interesting. I think that the steering technique is sometimes obviously poor and it is a very concrete thing to deal with. Example - jerky steering at high speed, with left hand on gear stick. Wouldn't you want to mention?

But if you are talking about giving input to fellow HPC members I hope you wouldn't be seeing anything like that!

I think on reflection there are indeed probably more times that I talk about steering than zero, although I'm not sure it's often top of the list. Often I think coarse steering is more a question of getting vision and position in the right place rather than steering techniques per se. Although all that said, I was with Don last week thinking about really focussing on the touch and feeling the tyres relax etc. Of course -- I wasn't steering: I was feeling grip...

[Gareth]

The assumption is that if there is more than one way to skin a cat then it is silly/daft/dogma/(insert other belittling term) to prescribe one way.

I'm happy to let others think what they may, but I think of the learning as a process.

Taking the avoidance of BGOL as an example, then at one level it seems like a handy way of learning to recognise the feeling and rhythm of slowing down in preparation for hazards. It could be argued that when most candidates present themselves for assessment by an IAM test examiner, that habit isn't ingrained enough to be automatic, so should be implemented by the candidate and expected by the examiner. Further along the learning process, when slowing enough, and early enough, in preparation for hazards is completely automatic, then avoiding BGOL might not be necessary, but this might be some years after the initial IAM test was passed.

Part of this depends on how people learn - some people find an externally mandated pattern of behaviour helpful when judging whether they're achieving the correct outcome, but this doesn't apply to everyone. Some people find this to be more the case during the early part of learning, and are willing to discard, or downgrade it's importance, as learning continues.

[waremark]

It was the Chairman of the HPC who declared "The revolution is coming", not I.

I cannot remember the context of that quote - did it really imply a campaign?

The context was his sting operation to expose the intransigence of the Master's examiner with regards to steering technique The preoccupation that some have with this cannot reasonably be described as an interest or a point of view rather than a campaign. Indeed, it would be odd to describe it as a revolution if it wasn't in response to a concerted effort.

Now pretty much the whole of that does seem daft to me. No sting, no campaign.

[TripleS]

I think on reflection there are indeed probably more times that I talk about steering than zero, although I'm not sure it's often top of the list. Often I think coarse steering is more a question of getting vision and position in the right place rather than steering techniques per se. Although all that said, I was with Don last week thinking about really focussing on the touch and feeling the tyres relax etc. Of course -- I wasn't steering: I was feeling grip...

This...

I talk a fair bit about steering, but it's important to divorce the method by which you steer from the results you want to get from the steering. If you can do the latter then the former tends to fall away as a point for discussion. I know I'm coming back to the whole inputs vs outputs thing again, but it is important, I think, to understand that whilst you might be banging on about the continued existence of the human race being predicated by the need for you to, in the words of one late, lamented driving coach, start milking the cow, what you're actually doing is attempting to add smoothness to the steering process.

You could get exactly the same thing, probably quicker and certainly something that will stick with your candidate by removing the middleman and looking at how to get those inputs smooth instead. It's horribly easy to fall into the 'do as I do' method of instruction, but the results tend to be hit and miss.

Seems reasonable to me.

My approach to steering has now settled down to being aimed at minimising the inputs, applying them very gently, smoothly and progressively, and doing everything in an unhurried fashion.

I don't particularly promote or disapprove of any specific technique, whether it be pull-push, fixed grip, predictive, rotational; or anything else. As far as I'm concerned it is fine (and perhaps desirable) to use a wide range of methods so long as they all work reliably, and this can include leting the wheel slip through your hands (in a controlled manner) when the lock comes off as we exit a low speed tight turn. Palming can also be entirely satisfactory at times; and so can steering with one finger! The latter can be used to aid the straightening up process, or putting lock on at low speed if the level of power assistance makes this workable.

Somebody mentioned having both hands near the steering wheel so that they can both be deployed quickly and firmly in case of urgent need, and I think that was a point well worth making: but do we need both hands on the wheel at all times? No, I don't think we need that.

Unless you want (or need) to involve yourself with tests (advanced or otherwise), just do what works well for you. By all means keep it under review, think about it periodically, and you'll be fine.

Right, I'm off to Lakeland for a bit.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

I was thinking this morning, after I'd nicked Hanna's Alfa for the commute, that much of this talk of steering technique is irrelevant when you're driving a car that requires real steering effort

[Gareth]

I've never noticed Hanna's car being particularly gruntneedy in the steering department.

You probably don't remember the times when you were driving slowly or else the pump is failing

[hir]

It seems that RoSPA are moving the emphasis in its guidance on steering for candidates and tutors in the direction of "outcomes".

Here's their latest guidance on steering in its entirety:

From RoSPA Advanced Car Test - Guidelines for Candidates and Tutors (Rev March 2014)

Steering:

This should be smooth and accurate at all times. It is important that the driver is in full control of the steering wheel and in most circumstances the best way to achieve this is with both hands in contact with the wheel. The pull push method described in Roadcraft will help with this.


The primary emphasis is on outcomes, with both hands on the wheel. Inputs are secondary, with a gentle nudge in the direction of Pull-Push and Roadcraft.

So, come on the IAM, wake up and smell the coffee.

[sussex2]

Perhaps it is the very name pull push that is wrong.
It could sound to some as if you are opening a lock gate

[WhoseGeneration]

Perhaps it is the very name pull push that is wrong.
It could sound to some as if you are opening a lock gate

I've been thinking about this and I think you're onto something.
"Pull" and "Push" imply a degree of force, which might have been of relevance way back in the mists of time of the first Roadcraft.
The first edition I have a copy of has a Jaguar saloon on the cover "NVB 348E", whether PAS equipped I don't know, though Triple S Dave might. Btw, loose insert with 7 pages of corrections provided. Also of note, this edition doesn't appear to consider that women ever drive cars!
Now, for any relatively modern car?
So, how might we now best describe this way of steering?

[stefan einz]

It was the Chairman of the HPC who declared "The revolution is coming", not I.

I cannot remember the context of that quote - did it really imply a campaign?

The context was his sting operation to expose the intransigence of the Master's examiner with regards to steering technique The preoccupation that some have with this cannot reasonably be described as an interest or a point of view rather than a campaign. Indeed, it would be odd to describe it as a revolution if it wasn't in response to a concerted effort.

To describe my desire to take and achieve the best score in the Masters test as a "sting operation" is as ridiculous as it is offensive to me. Please refrain from presupposing you have any idea about my motives.

For the record, I am prepared to bet any amount of money you like that one day the IAM will change its hard-to-fathom position to only promote PP. As good as PP is, the bulk of the posts above make a very strong case for a more flexible approach.

Cheers

(PS I may just come along on Saturday. Would be good to see if you are as courageous with your attacks on me face to face.)

[MGF]

The mock offence is unconvincing.

Of course there is a campaign and if change is so beneficial to the IAM you should be proud of it rather than pretend there isn't a concerted effort to achieve the same.

The revolution is coming.

(I couldn't care less what you do on Saturday and I am quite happy to repeat anything stated here to anyone in person. Why on earth you might think that would take courage is beyond me).

[stefan einz]

The mock offence is unconvincing.

Of course there is a campaign and if change is so beneficial to the IAM you should be proud of it rather than pretend there isn't a concerted effort to achieve the same.

The revolution is coming.

(I couldn't care less what you do on Saturday and I am quite happy to repeat anything stated here to anyone in person. Why on earth you might think that would take courage is beyond me).

I'd have preferred a straight apology since you accused me of ulterior motives when none existed. That was my point and if you can't do me the courtesy of accepting my word, then I have nothing more to say to you.

[MGF]

...My approach to steering has now settled down to being aimed at minimising the inputs, applying them very gently, smoothly and progressively, and doing everything in an unhurried fashion..

I am not sure that gentle, smooth and progressive is an indication of minimising inputs. Apparently it often has a lot more to do with the application of power.