Steering - again, what should be taught

[vonhosen]

I qualified as an instructor for the MSF, a US organisation, in 1994. Half a day of the two week course was devoted to 'not being sued'. The gist was: have a syllabus based on proven techniques, and stick to it.

And when evidence exists that the chosen techniques can have adverse effects?

That's the problem as understanding etc evolves, it doesn't remain as static as some training methodology.

Much of the course content was based on scientific research to determine best practice.

Yes & the thing about scientific understanding is it evolves. A lot of what scientists considered to be true & the best theory in yesteryear has changed by today, otherwise we'd still be believing the sun orbited the earth rather than vice versa.

[revian]

'Best practice' can only ever relate to the knowledge in hand at the time.
A Scientific theory is only a model that makes sense of what we experience/know at that time. It has a validity if it's repeatable (eg experimentally) but is always(or should be) open to new facts... Which will 'evolve' it.

It's too easy to conclude science = truth.
Scientific theory = well educated guess might be more accurate

[Astraist]

This is true when "science" is defined as an empirical study, rather than a rational-oriented one. In the context of driving and automobiles, driving technique is derived from rational practice with empirical proof of efficiency.

All steering techniques - from Fixed-Grip, through Pull-Push and Rotational and down to Predictive steering methods - have some sort of reason behind them and enough hours of application in all driving environments to determine their efficiency, leastways for the average AD.

Hence, all these techniques - when applied properly - should be considered acceptable, and since they are all acceptable, what benefit arises for the AD from even discerning them, instead of simply steering in a (general) way that feels natural?

[vonhosen]

This is true when "science" is defined as an empirical study, rather than a rational-oriented one. In the context of driving and automobiles, driving technique is derived from rational practice with empirical proof of efficiency.

All steering techniques - from Fixed-Grip, through Pull-Push and Rotational and down to Predictive steering methods - have some sort of reason behind them and enough hours of application in all driving environments to determine their efficiency, leastways for the average AD.

Hence, all these techniques - when applied properly - should be considered acceptable, and since they are all acceptable, what benefit arises for the AD from even discerning them, instead of simply steering in a (general) way that feels natural?

And we are back to the repeatable outcome being important rather than the method used to achieve it & the 'diktat of a method' undermining the development of higher import levels such as self awareness, responsibility for choice/actions etc etc.

[revian]

All steering techniques - from Fixed-Grip, through Pull-Push and Rotational and down to Predictive steering methods - have some sort of reason behind them and enough hours of application in all driving environments to determine their efficiency, leastways for the average AD.

and thus all that should concern anyone is a safe 'output' that is 'repeatable' since the universe of steering situations is well known.

....what benefit arises for the AD from even discerning them, instead of simply steering in a (general) way that feels natural?

I'm beginning to wonder if pulling up the carrot as often as this thread doesn't produce better veg but just creates uncertainty.

[Astraist]

and thus all that should concern anyone is a safe 'output' that is 'repeatable' since the universe of steering situations is well known.

True, but not entirely. There has to be some connection between effective steering inputs and an effective cornering output. There is a similar relationship between the steering input (in terms of angle and rate of turning) and the sub-inputs or hand movements on the wheel.

Imagine a driver that uses the advocated Pull-Push steering, but does so within a very limited range of hand movement, and compare that driver to one who uses Rotational, but takes 180 degrees of steering with each hand movement. Which driver would achieve the desired cornering output?

[revian]

Imagine a driver that uses the advocated Pull-Push steering, but does so within a very limited range of hand movement, and compare that driver to one who uses Rotational, but takes 180 degrees of steering with each hand movement. Which driver would achieve the desired cornering output?

I guess that there are some who would say that both could..the former may need warp speed hand movements. But if they can....
I'm tending to take bigger bites but hope my RoSPA examiner will be happy...

[waremark]

Imagine a driver that uses the advocated Pull-Push steering, but does so within a very limited range of hand movement, and compare that driver to one who uses Rotational, but takes 180 degrees of steering with each hand movement. Which driver would achieve the desired cornering output?

I guess that there are some who would say that both could..the former may need warp speed hand movements. But if they can....
I'm tending to take bigger bites but hope my RoSPA examiner will be happy...

Your Rospa examiner will probably be happy - see the excellent new Rospa guidelines (if preparing for a Rospa test you have probably already seen it):

http://www.kentrospa.co.uk/userfiles/fi ... 202014.pdf

On steering:

"This should be smooth and accurate at all times. It is important that the driver is in full control of the steering wheel and in most circumstances the best way to achieve this is with both hands in contact with the wheel. The pull push method described in Roadcraft will help with this."

Pretty good, but I would prefer the last sentence to read: ' The pull push method described in Roadcraft is one technique which may help with this.'

[revian]

Thank you Waremark... Hadn't seen it yet...

[TripleS]

Perhaps it is the very name pull push that is wrong.
It could sound to some as if you are opening a lock gate

I've been thinking about this and I think you're onto something.
"Pull" and "Push" imply a degree of force, which might have been of relevance way back in the mists of time of the first Roadcraft.
The first edition I have a copy of has a Jaguar saloon on the cover "NVB 348E", whether PAS equipped I don't know, though TripleS Dave might. Btw, loose insert with 7 pages of corrections provided. Also of note, this edition doesn't appear to consider that women ever drive cars!
Now, for any relatively modern car?
So, how might we now best describe this way of steering?

NVB 348E ? Hell, that's a younger car (1967 ish?) than the one appearing on my first copy of "Roadcraft." Anyhow, what Jaguar model is it? I would guess 3.8 Mark 2, or a 3.8 S type, or a 340; and as far as I'm aware power steering was an optional extra on those.

Incidentally, my oldest copy of "Roadcraft" is the 1960 edition, and that has a Wolseley 6/90 on the front cover - VGU 246.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

...My approach to steering has now settled down to being aimed at minimising the inputs, applying them very gently, smoothly and progressively, and doing everything in an unhurried fashion..

I am not sure that gentle, smooth and progressive is an indication of minimising inputs. Apparently it often has a lot more to do with the application of power.

Oh I do appreciate that the use of power is another relevant aspect, and I used to make some use of that in my RWD days - now long gone, sadly. I honestly don't know how to use power to aid steering in a FWD car.

[TripleS]

How about this for a new steering technique, then:

A couple of days ago I was driving from the top of Kirkstone pass, down to Ambleside, this being a long steep hill, with a fair few sharp bends and quite narrow in parts: locally it is known as 'The Struggle.'

Now then, I was driving down a section of this road using only my right hand for steering. The reason for this will remain unexplained.

Anyhow, when I came to a sharp LH bend I started out with my right hand at about 3 on the SW and I began to apply some left lock. My hand got round to about 8, at which point I realised that more lock would be needed. OK, no problem: all it needed was to grip the rim with RH thumb and forefinger, pivot my other three fingers around this grip point so that they then held the wheel rim from the inside. The forefinger then joined them on the inside of the rim, and the thumb adopted a slightly adjusted position on the face of the SW rim. While this was going on my hand moved round to about 5, which I could not have achieved using fixed grip!

This was an entirely unplanned form of steering, and TBH it quite surprised me when I realised what I had done. Even so, for an unhurried manoeuvre at about 20-25 mph it actually gave a quite decent result.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that when you have a (long established) wide variety of steering wheel handling methods, you can be pretty sure that there will be something available that will get the job done, even if some would say it's not what they would want to see on an advanced test; or at all, for that matter!

[WhoseGeneration]

NVB 348E ? Hell, that's a younger car (1967 ish?) than the one appearing on my first copy of "Roadcraft." Anyhow, what Jaguar model is it? I would guess 3.8 Mark 2, or a 3.8 S type, or a 340; and as far as I'm aware power steering was an optional extra on those.

Incidentally, my oldest copy of "Roadcraft" is the 1960 edition, and that has a Wolseley 6/90 on the front cover - VGU 246.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

1968, second edition, you have to remember I'm younger than you so the reg fits and, yes, 3.8 Mark 2 I think.
Interesting thing is I remember a long ago talk to the IAM group I was in, from a long serving car and motorcycle Traffic Officer.
He told us of a new car arriving and it had power steering fitted, that usually being not the case, even if an option and the majority view was, "Get it fitted out and marked up, so it can't be sent back".

[7db]

Had a very enjoyable weekend thinking about my steering quite a lot. Firstly I can't believe that this thread is still going and secondly that noone has mentioned that steering with one hand is superior, apparently.

[WhoseGeneration]

I honestly don't know how to use power to aid steering in a FWD car.

You probably do, without consciously being aware of it.