Shoulder Checks

[GJD]

Interesting sub-thread popping up - thought it might benefit from being split out.

Some of the recent comments:

I have always taken a blind spot check in lane changing or joining a carriageway as being a 90-degree sideways glance as a belt-and-braces check before committing to the move.
DTES' take on it is quite clear as is Roadcraft's:
"Always check that no-one is sitting in your blind spot before you change lanes. Make sure you know where the offside and near side blind spots are on any vehicle that you drive ..." Page 61 of this year's edition.
So I would still advocate a check that goes no further than 90-degrees but one that turns your peripheral vision into the danger zone.

I think I tend to want slightly more than 90 degrees. The Boxster, especially with the hardtop on, has a huge blind spot behind the driver, such that it's only possible to check up to 90 degrees. I find myself feeling very vulnerable in being unable to check those last few degrees. Rational thinking, and testing with overtaking cars, shows that vehicles are visible earlier in the mirrors than I thought they were, but I still hanker after a proper check, by looking directly.

As we all know, the purpose of shoulder checks is to verify that you haven't missed something from other observation, principally the mirrors. Once you've been used to checking, going back to mirrors alone feels less safe. Discouraging people from checking seems to me to be on a dangerous course towards relying on one source of information only.

My feeling is with the quote from the 2007 edition that proper use of mirrors should be enough. I certainly do not generally make an over shoulder check when joining motorways or dual carriageways.
However this does depend on the situation including the vehicle I am driving so I would not be dogmatic about it

I think changing lanes and joining are a bit different. Quite often I don't feel the need for a shoulder check before changing lanes. Usually I've already been monitoring what's happening behind in my mirrors, and unless there's somewhere a vehicle could have come from that I wouldn't have seen, there isn't anything to look for.

When joining though, I check over my shoulder much more often, and it is over my shoulder - I think I rotate my head more than 90 degrees and I'm looking back up the carriageway behind me. There's one obivous difference compared to changing lanes in that there's clearly no way I can have been previously monitoring what's going on behind. But also, when changing lane there is just the traditional blind spot, between what the rear view mirror and wing mirror can see, whereas on a slip road, until quite late you are probably not quite parallel to the carriageway and laterally further from it, and the mirrors aren't much use at all. If the layout is amenable, I don't want to wait until I'm in the final part of the slip road where the broken line starts before starting to try and find out what's happening behind me, and so looking with my eyes instead of the mirrors is often the only option.

Mind you, being laterally further from the carriageway, the pillars themselves can provide pretty good blind spots when you turn your head too. I had an entire Audi A6 estate - a new, fat, huge one - hide in my B pillar blind spot when I looked over my shoulder yesterday morning. And (not that it's got anything to do with looking behind you) I've also had the A pillar hide a car ahead in lane 1 before.

[Horse]

Is it worth considering 'head checks' rather than just 'shoulder'?

In the family Altea the A pillars are so broad and obstructive that SEAT should have provided a space hopper instead of driver's seat, the amount of bobbing about needed to see around it at junctions and when cornering . . .

As a motorcyclist, shoulder checks into the blind spot are regular things for me; typically, bike mirrors allow large blind spots.

This also, of course, links to the 'reversing' thread. So many modern cars have restricted glass area (whether due to styling or strength aspects) that mirrors are essential. I've driven a couple of vehicles with the rear view camera systems which show the path of travel as dictated by steering applied - very clever!

[Ancient]

I'm always puzzled by this 'shoulder check' thing. Driving an MGA there were large areas not covered by mirrors and (with the top down) it was an obvious thing to simple look around, similarly on a motorbike; however in my modern cars (currently Skoda Superb estate) all I see if I actually shoulder-check are the inside of the car and some rather wide pillars. The mirrors OTOH give me a good view outside of the car with overlap between central and door mirrors and anything foreward of the door mirrirs visible through the front side windows (if not the wndscreen!). Yet apparently an obvious shoulder check (as opposed to simply turning my head to look out of the side windows at the mirror and whatever is alongside me whilst keeping a view ahead in peripheral vision) is required for (at least) RoADAR.
My mirrors show me all potential areas of threat behind me - I've tried to identify these so-called 'blind spots' but there simply aren't any so why am I required to shoulder check on a vehicle where it provides no benefit?

[jcochrane]

My experience is the same as yours, Ancient, in my own car. I like to have the mirrors adjusted so I can see a lttle of my car's bodywork and have at least two quick looks. The combination of these two things helps me judge the speed of the approaching car.

[Horse]

My experience is the same as yours, Ancient, in my own car. I like to have the mirrors adjusted so I can see a lttle of my car's bodywork and have at least two quick looks. The combination of these two things helps me judge the speed of the approaching car.

I have mine (Ibiza) adjusted so that the side of the car is just visible, but even then there's a dead zone to the right which a glance sideways 'clears' (or not).

[jcochrane]

My experience is the same as yours, Ancient, in my own car. I like to have the mirrors adjusted so I can see a lttle of my car's bodywork and have at least two quick looks. The combination of these two things helps me judge the speed of the approaching car.

I have mine (Ibiza) adjusted so that the side of the car is just visible, but even then there's a dead zone to the right which a glance sideways 'clears' (or not).

Likewise, turning my head further causes me great pain (an age thing).

[Gumby]

I always do a shoulder check before joining and whilst doing other manoeuvres. You don't know who or what is in your blind spot. You can do all the mirror checks in the world and still miss something travelling at the same speed in the blind spot. without looking there, you don't know.

I just don't feel comfortable not doing it. Doing so means you have done all you reasonably can to check you are not going to bump into someone or take out a motorcyclist.

I witnessed a cyclist being knocked over a few years ago by a driver reversing round a corner. He was looking in his mirrors but didn't bother looking over his shoulder. As the cyclist was travelling at the same speed, they were continually in the blind spot until they both met.

[revian]

. I witnessed a cyclist being knocked over a few years ago by a driver reversing round a corner. He was looking in his mirrors but didn't bother looking over his shoulder. As the cyclist was travelling at the same speed, they were continually in the blind spot until they both met.

Can't quite follow that...and it may well be me...

Wasn't the cyclist going in the opposite direction to the car? Same speed but in the opposite direction? Into/out of the blind spot?

Is the look 'backwards' around the corner as the reverse manouvre begins the most important as none of the mirrors are likely to pick up any hazard behind because of the angles. Once the turn is started the mirror might be enough and safe?

If the reverse is from right hand side of the road into a side road and hence with the flow of traffic ....the eyes forward will be more important than the mirror?

Ian

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

I sort of agree with GJD - it is slightly less necessary with lane changing, but that doesn't stop me doing it. Once you've found a motorcyclist in your blind spot whom you were previously unaware of, you are made cautious for ever more. There's always a slight doubt in my mind, no matter how closely I've looked at the mirrors. Obviously others have banished that doubt, and are happy that their mirrors show everything.

Who here has actually done a systematic blind spot check on their car(s)? It's something I know I should do, but have never done.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Yet apparently an obvious shoulder check (as opposed to simply turning my head to look out of the side windows at the mirror and whatever is alongside me whilst keeping a view ahead in peripheral vision) is required for (at least) RoADAR.

I hope you aren't extrapolating from something I said...?

[WhoseGeneration]

Why any attempt to prescribe how any individual, in their particular vehicle, should ensure their having the necessary vision in any situation?
Boils down to, "Is it safe to move and how do I know?".
That "safe" implies all round vision, yes including not forgetting forwards in many situations.

[Zebedee]

As a motorcyclist, I'd much rather car drivers did a shoulder before changing lane.

[Ralge]

Years ago I was assessed for suitability for on-road NDIS training by a retired Class1 driver.
He questioned me why I head-turn-checked before changing lanes.
Him: "You are an AD, you can track the whereabouts of other vehicles in your mirrors and only move into the identified safe gap".
Me: "I still think I need to as a belt-and-braces check".
Him: "I accept there may be times when you've lost a little of your awareness of what's around you, you've focused sharply on what's happening/developing ahead, when you're aware that you have been distracted a little by passenger/radio ..."
Me: "so what you are saying is that I only need that sideways belt-and-braces check when I am sure that I am unsure. How does that work?"

More than a few years later, in my diary (March 2012) is the moment I found a car in my bs that had no right to be there and, by definition, I can't say where it appeared from. Guess what I will continue to advocate?

[WhoseGeneration]

As a motorcyclist, I'd much rather car drivers did a shoulder before changing lane.

Devil's advocate mode, why would you, as an AD motorcyclist, put yourself in a car driver's blindspot?

[Zebedee]

I avoid putting myself in cars' blind spots, but I'm also human. Nobody can ride faultlessly 100% of the time.

Advanced training has made me far safer and it's directly saved me from being involved in serious injury on more than one occasion. Even with lots of advanced training, however, driving and especially riding are never free of risk entirely.