Shoulder Checks

[Horse]

As a motorcyclist, I'd much rather car drivers did a shoulder before changing lane.

Devil's advocate mode, why would you, as an AD motorcyclist, put yourself in a car driver's blindspot?

Unless the rider maintains a constant position relative to the car (that's angular, not nec. distance), then negotiating a blindspot is likely.

Otherwise, it would be practically impossible to ever pass (or be passed by) another vehicle.

[TR4ffic]

Copied over from the other thread...

I will always make a good check over the shoulder when joining a motorway/DC (greater than 90deg); even after adjusting my door mirrors further out (following a recent thread on here) that has made the blind spots negligible, it is difficult to make a full assessment whilst on the slip road of what is potentially happening behind (in L1) and to the side of you (L1 & L2) solely via the mirrors. That quick check over my shoulder is, IMO, essential.

I will also make a quick glance to the right (90deg) when changing lanes - after being on the motorway/DC for a while and having a good appreciation of what is/isn't behind me from using my mirrors, when ready to change lanes and happy that the lane to my right is clear, indicator on and a quick glance is just a confidence check that all is what I expect. Perhaps it's just habit...

You mentioned mirrors and their adjustment and I think that is a key point as an awful lot of drivers seem to be wanting to look at their own vehicle.
Whenever I take my car into a garage and the work necessitates a road test I pretty much always find my mirrors adjusted that way when I pick the thing up.

For more years than I care to remember, my door mirrors were always adjusted so that I could see a vertical strip of my own car down the inside edge of the mirror. Following some advice on another thread, I moved them both out so that the car is just out of sight - even at the cars 'fatest' point, the door waist/swage line below the window. It has taken some getting used to but the advantages in the extra vision and reduction in blind spots is well worth it.

I would recommend everyone give it a try but, like I said, it does take some getting used to...

[Ancient]

Yet apparently an obvious shoulder check (as opposed to simply turning my head to look out of the side windows at the mirror and whatever is alongside me whilst keeping a view ahead in peripheral vision) is required for (at least) RoADAR.

I hope you aren't extrapolating from something I said...?

Not at all, I've been told that by my RoADAR trainer, despite having checked that I do not have blind spots not covered by mirrors (apart from the obvious below the rear windscreen and below the bonnet, but they can't be seen from inside the car at all)

[Russ_H]

I sort of agree with GJD - it is slightly less necessary with lane changing, but that doesn't stop me doing it. Once you've found a motorcyclist in your blind spot whom you were previously unaware of, you are made cautious for ever more. There's always a slight doubt in my mind, no matter how closely I've looked at the mirrors. Obviously others have banished that doubt, and are happy that their mirrors show everything.

Who here has actually done a systematic blind spot check on their car(s)? It's something I know I should do, but have never done.

I often do a demonstration of this. I have the student sit in the driving seat in their normal position, with mirrors adjusted in their usual way. The window is down so that we can easily speak to each other. I stand beside the car, just behind the driver, on the offside, and ask the student scan his or her mirrors. It is rare that they can see me, even though I'm only two or three feet away. It is also possible to demonstrate the blindspot that exists on the nearside of the vehicle. The need for all round checks in car parks, for example, can then be addressed. It also raises the issue of effective mirror adjustment.

Mostly, I do this to reinforce the need for blind spot checks before moving away from rest, but the idea can be extended to moving blind spot checks.

I rarely hear of car instructors doing this, but it is fairly widespread among motorcycle instructors. I strongly recommend it.

[Ancient]

I sort of agree with GJD - it is slightly less necessary with lane changing, but that doesn't stop me doing it. Once you've found a motorcyclist in your blind spot whom you were previously unaware of, you are made cautious for ever more. There's always a slight doubt in my mind, no matter how closely I've looked at the mirrors. Obviously others have banished that doubt, and are happy that their mirrors show everything.

Who here has actually done a systematic blind spot check on their car(s)? It's something I know I should do, but have never done.

I often do a demonstration of this. I have the student sit in the driving seat in their normal position, with mirrors adjusted in their usual way. The window is down so that we can easily speak to each other. I stand beside the car, just behind the driver, on the offside, and ask the student scan his or her mirrors. It is rare that they can see me, even though I'm only two or three feet away. It is also possible to demonstrate the blindspot that exists on the nearside of the vehicle. The need for all round checks in car parks, for example, can then be addressed. It also raises the issue of effective mirror adjustment.

Mostly, I do this to reinforce the need for blind spot checks before moving away from rest, but the idea can be extended to moving blind spot checks.

I rarely hear of car instructors doing this, but it is fairly widespread among motorcycle instructors. I strongly recommend it.

OK, so I just went to the car with a portable post (4"x4", just over 3' high) and placed it " beside the car, just behind the driver, on the offside", it was clearly visible in my mirror. I noted where the ground was not visible and moved the post to there, then when I looked in my mirror the post was not there - instead it was directly in sight out of the corner of my eye (have I just performed a 'shoulder check' I wonder?).
I then moved it to halfway between the two previous points; not in direct sight, it was wholly visible on the edge of my mirror. I moved it again away from the car (towards the mirror edge) by about 8" to try to find this 'blind spot' - with the result that it was visible (just) in the mirror and also by direct sight as I looked at the mirror.
My conclusion is that I cannot 'lose from sight' an object half the size of a small adult. If I were to manoevre my car in a school playground with children present it would be necessary for safety to have someone acting as 'banksman' - but I knew that anyway (directly in front and directly underneath the rear window it would be easy to 'lose' a small person). I cannot find this 'blind spot' where it is possible to lose a 'cycle.
OTOH there are blind spots either side looking forwards in which it is possible (if I don't move my head and indeed shoulders) to 'lose' a small truck . Still, the movement ensures I don't stiffen up too much .

[Russ_H]

Not at all, I've been told that by my RoADAR trainer, despite having checked that I do not have blind spots not covered by mirrors (apart from the obvious below the rear windscreen and below the bonnet, but they can't be seen from inside the car at all)

I cannot find this 'blind spot' where it is possible to lose a 'cycle.
OTOH there are blind spots either side looking forwards in which it is possible (if I don't move my head and indeed shoulders) to 'lose' a small truck . Still, the movement ensures I don't stiffen up too much .

My mirrors show me all potential areas of threat behind me - I've tried to identify these so-called 'blind spots' but there simply aren't any so why am I required to shoulder check on a vehicle where it provides no benefit?

Fine. But there are lateral blind spots in the view from my car, so I will continue to make suitable checks.

Here is a link to a junction that I use regularly. The A194(M) merges with the A1(M). It is normal for drivers in the third lane of the A1(M) to swoop in from afar so that they can take the next exit.

http://goo.gl/maps/mrXCT

Here is another. In this case I am approaching in the right hand lane, and the left hand lane comes in from an odd angle. I take the next exit on the left, and it is not far.

http://goo.gl/maps/uC0pJ

And here is a third. Again, approaching in the right hand lane, but having to move to the left for the next exit.

http://goo.gl/maps/7Nhl1

The grass is often left long at these sites, and completely obscures the view. It is not possible to see anything on approach. I do not think that I could force myself to merge at any of these places without a blind spot check.

You make a good point about blind spots caused by pillars; they are becoming increasingly obtrusive.

[Ancient]

[
Fine. But there are lateral blind spots in the view from my car, so I will continue to make suitable checks.

Here is a link to a junction that I use regularly. The A194(M) merges with the A1(M). It is normal for drivers in the third lane of the A1(M) to swoop in from afar so that they can take the next exit.

http://goo.gl/maps/mrXCT

Here is another. In this case I am approaching in the right hand lane, and the left hand lane comes in from an odd angle. I take the next exit on the left, and it is not far.

http://goo.gl/maps/uC0pJ

And here is a third. Again, approaching in the right hand lane, but having to move to the left for the next exit.

http://goo.gl/maps/7Nhl1

The grass is often left long at these sites, and completely obscures the view. It is not possible to see anything on approach. I do not think that I could force myself to merge at any of these places without a blind spot check.

You make a good point about blind spots caused by pillars; they are becoming increasingly obtrusive.

Absolutely! I was trying to make the point that it differs between drivers and vehicles - there is no one check that will work for them all (is that Dogma? Or Anti-dogma? I'm confused ). On the first junction as pictured in google I would (in my current vehicle) be in the outside lane checking the mirrors before the grass ended: In a different vehicle or if the grass is too long/has become hedgegrows, that wouldn't work of course - but I'd have no blindspot in this vehicle, changing lanes as the merge came. At a different junction (for example here http://goo.gl/maps/PVNOx) a 'shoulder check' is useful and often allows a rolling 2nd through the junction when it is quiet: That's because the 'threat' is about 95 degrees out and 10 - 100 yards away.

[Horse]

Is it worth considering 'head checks' rather than just 'shoulder'?

In the family Altea the A pillars are so broad and obstructive that SEAT should have provided a space hopper instead of driver's seat, the amount of bobbing about needed to see around it at junctions and when cornering . . .

You make a good point about blind spots caused by pillars; they are becoming increasingly obtrusive.

Thank you

[revian]

Russ_H. 'The A194(M) merges with the A1(M)'.

I preferred it when it was The Great North Road... On the back of my dad's Triumph 650 & sidecar. Plenty of space back then...

Ian

[ericonabike]

What is [are ] the downside[s] to doing a shoulder check?

[Ancient]

What is [are ] the downside[s] to doing a shoulder check?

Taking your eyes off the road ahead.
Potential for involuntary steering input if the shoulders are twisted.

[TripleS]

What is [are ] the downside[s] to doing a shoulder check?

Taking your eyes off the road ahead.
Potential for involuntary steering input if the shoulders are twisted.

It is a bit difficult to avoid that, but the effect might be reduced if knees are being used for steering.

[Horse]

Taking your eyes off the road ahead.

This is where the secret of comedy overlaps with one of arts of driving: timing.

Or, for those who don't know it, to ruin the old joke:
person 1: "What's the secret of c"
person 2: "TIMING!"

So only look to the side when the risk there outweighs the risk ahead. If someone's daft enough to look away from a high-risk hazard . . . For example, if there's a vehicle looking likely to encroach from the left, then a shoulder check to the right at that time would be ill-advised. Of course, there might be situations where this could be necessary (for a rider, making a lifesaver check right before committing to a turn at a crossroads), in which case the rider should manage their speed into the zone and choose appropriate timing for the look. [NB A common mistake is looking too late, either not having enough time to actually react to what's seen or actually starting the turn while still looking!]

Potential for involuntary steering input if the shoulders are twisted.

Potentially far worse on a motorcycle, trust me!

[Ancient]

Completely agree, it is a 'timing' thing (and I don't need to trust you, anonymous internet being: I remember how useful the 'sniff my armpit' check was when riding the Monza ). Disadvantages can be mitigated in various ways; the proper adjustment and use of mirrors being the primary one (that's why they are there and why I fitted extra side mirrors on my MGA).

WRT "If someone's daft enough to look away from a high-risk hazard ", that does rather depend on identifying what constitutes a high risk hazard. 'High risk to whom?' is the first obvious question. I people are taught to 'always shoulder check, they will (potentially) look away from the cyclist stopped to wait for a space on the roundabout, or the child standing on the edge of the kerb...

[Horse]

I people are taught to 'always shoulder check, they will (potentially) look away from the cyclist stopped to wait for a space on the roundabout, or the child standing on the edge of the kerb...

back in RAC/ACU days, one trainee had no mirrors. "It would be a good idea if you had a check over your shoulder every few seconds so you're aware of what's behind you".

He was stopped two days later for 'riding in a suspicious manner' . . .

riding the Monza

I had a V50 III