Offsiding and straightlining - cut from 'Tailgating' thread

[Horse]

Pulled out from the other thread rather than derail it.

Background:

As an AD, can you see a scenario where you end up on the wrong side of a decision because those ‘judging’ you fail to see (understand) what you were doing/attempting to do… Where you effectively end up being penalised for having a driving standard higher than that of the general populous.!?

The theme then moves to an ever-recurring question: what sets AD apart from 'DSA L'? . . . what 'actions' form a distinction between the two levels, and how can they be specified (for training) and assessed (for tests)?

The one which springs to mind is use of the road width, typically positioning for corners. . . . I'm not a great fan of offsiding for view, although I do 'straightline' when safety and view permit.

Given that you are a very experienced advanced driver/trainer/rider I am curious to know why you are not keen on offsiding? Am I right to perceive that you only ever off-side to 'straightline'?

Can I start with a few words and ideas to consider:

Proactive, respond Vs reactive
Stopping distances (and time taken) Vs forward view (in seconds)
Implications for other road users
Intentions, potential gain
Potential unintended consequences

And a definition or two (mine, not quotes) . . .

Offsiding: moving beyond the centre line (real or perceived) to gain view or stability (through the corner, not to avoid very poor road surface), on the approach to or through a corner [note: deliberately omitted 'safety' here, as in moving away from greater danger]
Straightlining: moving beyond the centre line when a clear view of the full road width is available

Perhaps best start with a few questions:

What is the main 'gain' from offsiding on the approach to a corner? Probably additional view. So that view must be required into dead ground, blind, hidden by the nearside of the corner.

What are you going to do with that additional, earlier view? This is where I think the errors may creep in for some, as they use the additional view to add (or maintain) speed, rather than remembering that they may well have to regain the nearside of the road. If that happens, then you're back to your original view, stopping distance and stopping time. Worse, the action of returning to the nearside will require steering into the turn on a tighter line, then returning to a 'normal' cornering line (as required for whatever you've identified) - in other words manouvering at your original 'smooth line' speed.

The additional view *might* show you the exit sooner - but if it's a blind bend with no other clues, shouldn't you presume worst case rather than continue into the bend on the offside?

Back to view; that works both ways. It also means that any oncoming driver sees you sooner. The question - which can never be answered - is 'How will that driver react?'. if they move to their right to avoid you, then your problems have just multiplied . . .

More on 'view': what view do you gain Vs where is the danger? If the danger is in a blind corner, then you have two vanishing points: the one where the 'kerbs meet'? (Which is actually, in a left bend, showing you the far kerb as the limit, you actually need to be looking where the left kerb meets the centre line, as your longest stopping distance in clear view on your side of the road. But . . . that is actually beyond the second, 'hidden', vanishing point - the surprise horizon just around the left kerb.

So extending view by offsiding could easily lull someone into a false sense of security over their stopping distance - and that could lead to temptation over speed . . .

[FWIW, IMHO many people are optimistic anyway over corner entry speeds, in particular the lead time ahead their vision provides]

If I do it, I'll return to the nearside while still on the straight approach (possibly that 'straight' is across lanes).

That's for two-lane roads. I think many people really push their luck on single lane width country roads with blind bends, positioning well over to the offside verge. My preference is to abandon a 'proud' position and - in extreme circumstances - keeping to the nearside (but sacrificing speed too, obviously). The argument I've heard is that the extended position gives better views - but, again, of what? If it's an oncoming vehicle what will the driver do? Also, many lanes have gravel etc. along the centre; keeping to the left wheel track means a firm surface is available for braking, rather than trying to steer and brake together.

Straightling, subject to a clear view of the offside verge etc., I'll happily do if there's a gain without safety loss, albeit not if it will confuse following drivers.

Is that a bike thing? They seems to have move view than grip, whilst the rest of us are languishing with more grip than view.

'More'?

Yes, the elevated riding position does help view. However, it's not as simple as just 'grip', it's all the laws of physics which act on bikes in awkward ways. Only very recently has an ABS which works in corners been developed for bikes. Combining braking and steering is possible, but uses available grip sooner.






And, yes, perhaps it should be in here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4466

[jont]

What are you going to do with that additional, earlier view? This is where I think the errors may creep in for some, as they use the additional view to add (or maintain) speed, rather than remembering that they may well have to regain the nearside of the road. If that happens, then you're back to your original view, stopping distance and stopping time. Worse, the action of returning to the nearside will require steering into the turn on a tighter line, then returning to a 'normal' cornering line (as required for whatever you've identified) - in other words manouvering at your original 'smooth line' speed.

...

Back to view; that works both ways. It also means that any oncoming driver sees you sooner. The question - which can never be answered - is 'How will that driver react?'. if they move to their right to avoid you, then your problems have just multiplied . . .

A little while back someone made the observation to me that if you need to "jink" back nearside should an oncoming vehicle appear, then you probably shouldn't have been offside in the first place.

I guess it's the difference between fishing for a view and being having enough of a view that you can be sure there aren't any oncomers.

[Ancient]

Of course the view you are extending may not be of the road itself, but into a blind entrance, behind a wall or hedge which comes down to the road. In this case (and with the case where the opposite carriageway itself is visible before offsiding but the nearside is not) offsiding gives a useful check whether there is anything that needs attention in the now-visible space.

It is also possible to start the steering earlier when offsiding into a LH bend, so that at times the return to the nearside is already part of your set steering (or indeed a straight line through the apex).

[revian]

Horse wrote

[FWIW, IMHO many people are optimistic anyway over corner entry speeds, in particular the lead time ahead their vision provides]

Yes.... and if you combine that with 'them' coming the other way and off siding for view or cutting close to the centre line (if not actually over it)...

I can see off siding for view as reasonable if the bend is not tight. Otherwise isn't it inviting problems? But then my driving was described as 'cautious'....

Ian

[daz6215]

Ask yourself are you gaining or maintaining? They are both quite different, if you are is it advantageous? If not why are you there?

[Grahar]

Pulled out from the other thread rather than derail it.

Given that you are a very experienced advanced driver/trainer/rider I am curious to know why you are not keen on offsiding? Am I right to perceive that you only ever off-side to 'straightline'?

Perhaps best start with a few questions:

What is the main 'gain' from offsiding on the approach to a corner? Probably additional view. So that view must be required into dead ground, blind, hidden by the nearside of the corner.

What are you going to do with that additional, earlier view? This is where I think the errors may creep in for some, as they use the additional view to add (or maintain) speed, rather than remembering that they may well have to regain the nearside of the road. If that happens, then you're back to your original view, stopping distance and stopping time. Worse, the action of returning to the nearside will require steering into the turn on a tighter line, then returning to a 'normal' cornering line (as required for whatever you've identified) - in other words manouvering at your original 'smooth line' speed.

The additional view *might* show you the exit sooner - but if it's a blind bend with no other clues, shouldn't you presume worst case rather than continue into the bend on the offside?

Back to view; that works both ways. It also means that any oncoming driver sees you sooner. The question - which can never be answered - is 'How will that driver react?'. if they move to their right to avoid you, then your problems have just multiplied . . .

More on 'view': what view do you gain Vs where is the danger? If the danger is in a blind corner, then you have two vanishing points: the one where the 'kerbs meet'? (Which is actually, in a left bend, showing you the far kerb as the limit, you actually need to be looking where the left kerb meets the centre line, as your longest stopping distance in clear view on your side of the road. But . . . that is actually beyond the second, 'hidden', vanishing point - the surprise horizon just around the left kerb.

So extending view by offsiding could easily lull someone into a false sense of security over their stopping distance - and that could lead to temptation over speed . . .

[FWIW, IMHO many people are optimistic anyway over corner entry speeds, in particular the lead time ahead their vision provides]

If I do it, I'll return to the nearside while still on the straight approach (possibly that 'straight' is across lanes).

That's for two-lane roads. I think many people really push their luck on single lane width country roads with blind bends, positioning well over to the offside verge. My preference is to abandon a 'proud' position and - in extreme circumstances - keeping to the nearside (but sacrificing speed too, obviously). The argument I've heard is that the extended position gives better views - but, again, of what? If it's an oncoming vehicle what will the driver do? Also, many lanes have gravel etc. along the centre; keeping to the left wheel track means a firm surface is available for braking, rather than trying to steer and brake together.

Straightling, subject to a clear view of the offside verge etc., I'll happily do if there's a gain without safety loss, albeit not if it will confuse following drivers.

These are all valid and good points about the potential mistakes of off-siding, but they are all problems that can be avoided if off-siding is learnt correctly. Surely the key fundamentals of learning off-siding is deciding where you will start and finish your offside position and how much of the opposing lane you can safely use? In my experience most the off-siding I do is on the approach to a bend where I can be certain there are no on-comers (allowing a margin for unseen drivers who could be out of sight).

The circumstances where off-siding whilst in a corner is beneficial to safety/progress is only where the extra view you gain is greater than that required to return smoothly to your side of the road (with an extra comfort buffer zone tacked on) should an on-comer appear.

[zadocbrown]

Ok. So representing the 'muddy both sides' brotherhood.... Here is my personal take on what I will/won't do:

I will happily straightline where I feel it is suitable, but almost always my speed on approach is not so high that I couldn't safely get round on my side. So my line is for added comfort and safety at entry (not speed) whilst potentially allowing a quicker exit. The point of committment is very late.

In terms of offsiding I readily indulge in order to preserve an existing view (I think this relatively uncontroversial) but will also on occasion extend this to bends which I believe will open up during my approach. If I don't get the clear view I hoped for I will move back to a safety position before reaching the bend. Again, the aim is earlier power rather than reduced braking.

On narrower roads, especially in absence of centre markings I may adopt a half way house with only a small part of the car over the line. This gets a little more view and places me further from anything dodgy nearside. It only really happens on more sweeping bends which allow more reaction time and is calculated to allow for a panic-free retreat if necessary. Volume of traffic is also considered so in practice this change of position isn't often needed.

[7db]

Interesting thoughts -- I guess this is why some institutions prefer to advise not to offside. I recently went for a check to explore whether I was going into corners too quickly and came out offsiding more on entry. The two were not connected.

[Zebedee]

Pulled out from the other thread rather than derail it.

Background:

As an AD, can you see a scenario where you end up on the wrong side of a decision because those ‘judging’ you fail to see (understand) what you were doing/attempting to do… Where you effectively end up being penalised for having a driving standard higher than that of the general populous.!?

...

Given that you are a very experienced advanced driver/trainer/rider I am curious to know why you are not keen on offsiding? Am I right to perceive that you only ever off-side to 'straightline'?

Back to view; that works both ways. It also means that any oncoming driver sees you sooner. The question - which can never be answered - is 'How will that driver react?'. if they move to their right to avoid you, then your problems have just multiplied . . .

More on 'view': what view do you gain Vs where is the danger? If the danger is in a blind corner, then you have two vanishing points: the one where the 'kerbs meet'? (Which is actually, in a left bend, showing you the far kerb as the limit, you actually need to be looking where the left kerb meets the centre line, as your longest stopping distance in clear view on your side of the road. But . . . that is actually beyond the second, 'hidden', vanishing point - the surprise horizon just around the left kerb.

...

Straightling, subject to a clear view of the offside verge etc., I'll happily do if there's a gain without safety loss, albeit not if it will confuse following drivers.

+1. I don't know if it's a bike thing, but I'm with Horse on this. I've been trained to off-side, but feel it adds more risk than benefit at legal speeds. I never felt I got a huge benefit from off-siding when my speed was within the legal limit. Whereas third party perception of off-siding is likely to be very negative.

[Horse]

Thanks, all, for comments. I'll respond to a couple over the next few days.

[TripleS]

Horse wrote

[FWIW, IMHO many people are optimistic anyway over corner entry speeds, in particular the lead time ahead their vision provides]

Yes.... and if you combine that with 'them' coming the other way and off siding for view or cutting close to the centre line (if not actually over it)...

I can see off siding for view as reasonable if the bend is not tight. Otherwise isn't it inviting problems? But then my driving was described as 'cautious'....
Ian

I don't think anyone should be criticised for being cautious, if indeed it did amount to a criticism. On the other hand, I have heard it said that you "can't be too slow into a hazard," but my response to that is to suggest that you can be unnecessarily slow, in which case you are merely sacrificing progress for no good reason. We need to be slow enough to be able to cope with whatever may confront us, or might reasonably be expected to confront us. If we are slow enough to be able to achieve that, there is no merit in going even more slowly. It adds nothing useful...and it might even encourage somebody to do a bit of tailgating.

[GJD]

That's for two-lane roads. I think many people really push their luck on single lane width country roads with blind bends, positioning well over to the offside verge. My preference is to abandon a 'proud' position and - in extreme circumstances - keeping to the nearside (but sacrificing speed too, obviously). The argument I've heard is that the extended position gives better views - but, again, of what? If it's an oncoming vehicle what will the driver do?

Do you mean single track?

As I think I've seen 7db say, cars come in integer widths (albeit the oncoming vehicle might not be a car). In those terms, if the width of the road is less than 2 then no amount of staying nearside is going to give you enough space to avoid a collision. Sacrificing speed will reduce the chance of a collision, but for any given speed the more you position to the outside of the bend (i.e. offside for a left-hander) the earlier you and the driver you don't want to collide with will see each other. Do you think seeing each other earlier might increase the chance of a collision?

In this situation, I think I'd vote for positioning offside, sacrificing speed and quite possibly a parp or two of the horn.

[fungus]

Do you mean single track?

As I think I've seen 7db say, cars come in integer widths (albeit the oncoming vehicle might not be a car). In those terms, if the width of the road is less than 2 then no amount of staying nearside is going to give you enough space to avoid a collision. Sacrificing speed will reduce the chance of a collision, but for any given speed the more you position to the outside of the bend (i.e. offside for a left-hander) the earlier you and the driver you don't want to collide with will see each other

I absolutely agree. If the road is single track and there is no way that two vehicles can pass, then going completely offside on approach to a left hand bend brings more safety benefits than staying tucked in to the left. Where you have to be careful is where there may not be room for two cars to pass , but room for a car and a bike. Then I would keep left and reduce speed even more. I rarely, if ever offside when there is room for two cars to pass approaching a left hander, unless there is good vision through the bend. This is one example of such a bend just beyond |Zig Zag Hill on the Dorset Wiltshire borders.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=50.98358,-2 ... 3,44.274,0

[Horse]

https://maps.google.com/?ll=50.983141,- ... 76,,0,4.23

If you mean heading East here, I'd happily go to the offside because I'd gain stability not view - it's possible to see all through the bend. That's straighlining as I said earlier:
Straightlining: moving beyond the centre line when a clear view of the full road width is available.

Now build a high wall on the left. Then that would be offsiding for view.

[Horse]

Horse wrote

[FWIW, IMHO many people are optimistic anyway over corner entry speeds, in particular the lead time ahead their vision provides]

Yes.... and if you combine that with 'them' coming the other way and off siding for view or cutting close to the centre line (if not actually over it)...

I can see off siding for view as reasonable if the bend is not tight. Otherwise isn't it inviting problems? But then my driving was described as 'cautious'....
Ian

I don't think anyone should be criticised for being cautious, if indeed it did amount to a criticism. On the other hand, I have heard it said that you "can't be too slow into a hazard,"

The one I heard was "No-one has ever crashed a motorcycle too slowly". That said, I've seen someone fall off at a standstill . . .

. . . there is no merit in going even more slowly. It adds nothing useful...and it might even encourage somebody to do a bit of tailgating.

Although if you go too fast, crash, then they run you over, that could be insult to injury!