Offsiding and straightlining - cut from 'Tailgating' thread

[revian]

The view from RoSPA HQ, I believe, is that RoSPA-paid fleet trainers should not demo' full off-siding ("P5") and should be very wary of advocating its use to Joe Fleetdriver.
The logic behind this is very simple. The civilian driver should be encouraged to drive well within his/her and the vehicle's capabilities. If that means keeping mostly well to the left and not making absolute full use of the road width, sobeit. Use of "P4" (astride the centre hazard line) can however be advocated as an intelligent, well thought-out and justifiable option for any combination of safety, clearance, vision/visibility, communication and stability. But safety must never be compromised and the driver must be comfortable with the notion of moving away from a more average/normal sweeping-the-road lateral position ("P2") and not be pressured outside his/her comfort zone.

Thanks for this and the answers of others. It matches what I thought was the case..'Don't do it if anyone else might see you it might mislead them'.

It's catching though... Out for a run this afternoon (feet not wheels) and found myself thinking 'should I run on the right hand side to maintain my view?' Must get out more perhaps..

[GJD]

See today's posts regarding 'P5' on fleet training in the 'progress' thread - that sounds totally inappropriate and exactly what concenrs me, my 'reservations'!

But what Ralge described was not a reason to be concerned about the idea that a driver should not impose on themselves an arbitrary limit on how much of the road width they consider to be available to them. It was a reason to be concerned that trainers focus on training, not on showing off.

I presume you mean a trainer had been showing off, and the trainees had copied that driving style?

No. Ralge talked about a trainer's demo drive scaring the trainees. I didn't see any suggestion that the trainees tried to replicate it - indeed I've got very much the opposite impression from what's been said since. See the bit of Ralge's post that TripleS quoted - that was the sub-thread I was in.

It sounds as if the trainer behaved in a manner worthy of concern before the trainees even got behind the wheel. I agree with you that it's a major point of concern, but if you're suggesting that the cause for concern is the concept of using more road width then I disagree with you.

Ralge's subsequent comment ("look what I used to do/can do") put me in mind of a trainer showing off, but of course I don't know if that's what was really going on. But whatever was going through the trainer's mind, if they managed to scare a whole car-load of trainees to that extent then their performance as a trainer, at least in that drive on that day, was pretty awful.

[Grahar]

Fip that around: would you, with a clear conscience, train - encourage even - someone to use a technique without being certain that they had a full understanding of it?

So what would that involve? That's success criteria.

So how do you set the 'ground rules'? What knowledge and skill must the trainee have previously demonstrated? How would you be sure they were secure with that?
How would you introduce the concept - and what caveats and warnings would you have in place?
What benefits do you expect the trainee to understand from its use? How will you ensure that risk is managed?

I know my answers - but that's irrelevant here! And any training must be appropriate to the individual trainee. If it's being taught on a 'fleet' course, then that's potentially a car-load of trainees.

Regarding drivers' expectations, search for paper (I think it was presented at a Rospa conference) called 'what do drivers do at junctions'.

'Look for offside vehicles' isn't.

No-one's commented on this, so have a read of:
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/confere ... abbett.pdf
In particular the diagram on PP8 of where an experienced driver looks . . .

The data may indicate that experienced driver fixate in areas of the road environment that ‘experience’ has taught them where hazards can be found. The novice driver here actually detected the moving motorcyclists more rapidly than did the experienced participant.

This is an interesting article (maybe a topic split required?). I would hope however that any advanced trainers/coaches teaching offsiding would make sure that the trainee was fully aware of the risks attached to offsiding (and indeed overtaking), near a junction (including other driver's expectations).

[Horse]

No. Ralge talked about a trainer's demo drive scaring the trainees.

It sounds as if the trainer behaved in a manner worthy of concern before the trainees even got behind the wheel. I agree with you that it's a major point of concern

Yes, I misunderstood exactly the context. Sadly, perhaps, it puts the case for concerns over regularly teaching the technique (as opposed to a gradual development of principles and their application) better than I have!

but if you're suggesting that the cause for concern is the concept of using more road width then I disagree with you.

Nope. Don't think I've said that - indeed have emphasised the opposite.

[Horse]

This is an interesting article (maybe a topic split required?). I would hope however that any advanced trainers/coaches teaching offsiding would make sure that the trainee was fully aware of the risks attached to offsiding (and indeed overtaking), near a junction (including other driver's expectations).

See my previous post, re developing principles.

Feel free to split. I posted it as an example of 'how not to be seen'

[MGF]

See today's posts regarding 'P5' on fleet training in the 'progress' thread - that sounds totally inappropriate and exactly what concenrs me, my 'reservations'!

But what Ralge described was not a reason to be concerned about the idea that a driver should not impose on themselves an arbitrary limit on how much of the road width they consider to be available to them. It was a reason to be concerned that trainers focus on training, not on showing off.

That might depend on the trainee. If grahar was there he may well have been so impressed he would consequently declare "I'm always looking to offside".

Arbitrary rules are useful. Particularly for those who set the bar for safety at "... not doing alarming or dangerous things"

[Grahar]

See today's posts regarding 'P5' on fleet training in the 'progress' thread - that sounds totally inappropriate and exactly what concenrs me, my 'reservations'!

But what Ralge described was not a reason to be concerned about the idea that a driver should not impose on themselves an arbitrary limit on how much of the road width they consider to be available to them. It was a reason to be concerned that trainers focus on training, not on showing off.

That might depend on the trainee. If grahar was there he may well have been so impressed he would consequently declare "I'm always looking to offside".

Arbitrary rules are useful. Particularly for those who set the bar for safety at "... not doing alarming or dangerous things"

I would be grateful if you could explain in more detail the point you are trying to make about my approach to offsiding.

Both these comments rely on your own supposition (you quote me in a different context to that in which I made them). They also suggest that you believe there is something wrong with my awareness /and or understanding of safety (either generally or in relation to offsiding)

I will be happy to clarify my position if you could explain in a clearer way your belief of my approach, (which I think you might misunderstand).

Lastly, when I was referring to arbitrary rules originally I was referring to 'I will never cross the centre line markings'. Is this the arbritary rule you are referring to in the context of offsiding?

[GJD]

See today's posts regarding 'P5' on fleet training in the 'progress' thread - that sounds totally inappropriate and exactly what concenrs me, my 'reservations'!

But what Ralge described was not a reason to be concerned about the idea that a driver should not impose on themselves an arbitrary limit on how much of the road width they consider to be available to them. It was a reason to be concerned that trainers focus on training, not on showing off.

That might depend on the trainee. If grahar was there he may well have been so impressed he would consequently declare "I'm always looking to offside".

Arbitrary rules are useful. Particularly for those who set the bar for safety at "... not doing alarming or dangerous things"

I'm not sure I follow. However, as evidenced by his response to my previous post, I appear to have completely misunderstood Horse's concerns so if there is a stick in this thread I have probably got a firm hold of the wrong end of it.

To clarify:
I think that "trainers should focus on training, not showing off" is probably true independent of who the trainee is .

And I think it's most unlikely that giving a demo drive like Ralge described is going to be the best way to illustrate to any trainee why being comfortable with the 'wrong' side of the road is important. Of course I've no idea whether that was the training objective for that drive.

However, my point re that trainer was that his error seemed to be completely failing to tailor his training to his trainees. It's difficult to imagine what preparation he could have gone through to conclude that such a demo was appropriate for this session with this trainees and yet end up scaring them and losing the training contract. It's the same error as, for example, banging on about pull-push steering before finding out whether your trainee has any interest in changing their steering.

[Grahar]

That might depend on the trainee. If grahar was there he may well have been so impressed he would consequently declare "I'm always looking to offside".

Arbitrary rules are useful. Particularly for those who set the bar for safety at "... not doing alarming or dangerous things"

Hopefully MGF will explain what he means by this, as it is all getting a bit confused...

[michael769]

My local Rospa examiners are quite happy with crossing a centre line providing done to potential advantage and safely etc ... I suspect that there has not been any national edict on the subject.

There is:

When you drive round bends and corners you should not cross marked centre lines.

http://www.roadar.org/drivers/info/car- ... e-2012.pdf

[TripleS]

My local Rospa examiners are quite happy with crossing a centre line providing done to potential advantage and safely etc ... I suspect that there has not been any national edict on the subject.

There is:

When you drive round bends and corners you should not cross marked centre lines.

http://www.roadar.org/drivers/info/car- ... e-2012.pdf

For some reason I can't open up that link and read it what it says, but that sounds to have removed a bit of the 'advanced' quality then, has it not? I mean, it's clearly taking away another facet of expert judgement, which is one of the important features of advanced driving; or so I thought.

The development of good judgement is a highly desirable quality to be encouraged in all drivers.

[michael769]

It is perhaps worth giving the entire bit on cornering so that things are in context:

Cornering: The examiner will watch how you drive around corners and bends in
both urban and rural areas. He will look at the line you take: does it give the best
view and safety margin? Was the speed chosen correct and did you use the controls
correctly? You will be expected to control your vehicle precisely so that you can stop
on your own side of the road within the distance you can see to be clear. You should
be able to make good use of limit point analysis. When you drive round bends and
corners you should not cross marked centre lines. You should not cut corners when
entering marked junctions. RoADAR believes that these actions are potentially
dangerous because they may be the result of entering the hazard too fast and may
confuse both oncoming and following drivers. This view is supported by The
Highway Code. If there are no centre markings then some movement over the centre
of the road may be acceptable.

[GJD]

When you drive round bends and corners you should not cross marked centre lines.

<snip>

If there are no centre markings then some movement over the centre of the road may be acceptable.

That's just bizarre. Why does removing a bit of paint change how acceptable it is?

[michael769]

That's just bizarre. Why does removing a bit of paint change how acceptable it is?

Because of how that paint influences the expectations of other drivers?

[GJD]

That's just bizarre. Why does removing a bit of paint change how acceptable it is?

Because of how that paint influences the expectations of other drivers?

Which is certainly irrelevant on all the occasions that yo can see there are no other drivers.

Honestly RoADAR, the whole point of advanced driving is to use thinking as a replacement for silly rules!