Signalling revisited!

[ScoobyChris]

Ok, here's a question that's been bugging me. Imagine a T-junction joining a major road. You are in the minor road waiting to turn left onto the major road. There is nothing behind you, no pedestrians about and the only traffic is one (or more) cars approaching on the main road from your right. Would you signal for their benefit? I decided that I wouldn't because the chances are they won't be able to see the signal anyway so it wouldn't be of any benefit to them, but wondered what others thought.....?

Chris

[MrToad]

That sounds about right to me - the approaching traffic wouldn't see it and it's unlikely that anyone else that you could expect to appear would benefit either.

The only exception that springs to mind is when your road position at the junction doesn't make it clear that you're intending to turn left. I had an occasion a few years ago when a following driver assumed I had parked, and turned left in front of me after passing around my offside.

Similarly, if I'm stopped behind an obstruction on my side of the road to let oncoming traffic through I'll put a right hand signal on. Several times I've seen vehicles approaching from behind assessing the situation badly and overtaking a waiting car into the path of the oncoming traffic.

Cheers

Tony

[James]

I have a very clear theory on this. I go by the definition of "always signalling when the signal COULD be beneficial to others". It depends on the driver, I for one approaching a minor T junction whilst on the main road would like to see the side indicator of a vehicle sat at the junction waiting to turn right. It gives me more information as to what they are likely to do and is a benefit to me. By others not indicating on the minor road there is also a possibility that I, as a car on the main road, may think they are actually indicating left. Therefore whilst I agree that generally it won't make much difference in the circumstances described, It would do to me as the observing road user. Therefore it "COULD" benefit others so I will indicate.

Other road users include pedestrians, cyclists, motorbikes and all other vehicles.

[rlmr]

You are in the minor road waiting to turn left onto the major road. There is nothing behind you, no pedestrians about and the only traffic is one (or more) cars approaching on the main road from your right. Would you signal for their benefit? I decided that I wouldn't because the chances are they won't be able to see the signal anyway so it wouldn't be of any benefit to them, but wondered what others thought.....?

That's a tick in the box for you if you were on test. Only signal to someone who would benefit. Usual rider of if there is any doubt, better to give a signal, but in the circumstances you outline you were spot on (IMHO).

[7db]

Pop the signal on - why not... What if traffic appears from the left and would like to know that you are pulling out, just as you are about to go... Will you take you hand off the wheel whilst steering to indicate to them?

[rodericksdad]

from the point of an aproaching vehicle especially a large one i would find it of great help as it would help me to asses the situation as most of the time around this neck of the woods when turning into the minor road be it from the left or right it is hard to know what they are actually going to do understandably if i was approaching from your right and you were turning left i wouldnt see your indicator any way,i know i shouldnt have really but i have been caught out a few times by right turners off of the minor road who havnt indicated their intentions and even sat more over to the left as if they were going left,as i have actually started to turn into the minor road they have then carried on forward and i have had to come to a standstill,i maybe havnt explained very well,but it definatly helps me when approaching in a larger vehicle,i ramble,sorry,

[OneDragons]

The way I have viewed it recently (though could be wrong) is on approaching a turn during the 'information' stage, if I cannot see all roads clearly I will always indicate first as a car may appear during a later stage and I dont have to then signal hurridly.

As to the turning left thing specifically, I have also thought about this and dont see how it could aid a driver to your right as they cant see the indicator. So combined with my comment above, if I was approaching a junction where I could see clearly right and left on the main road on my approach and it was as you described then I would indicate as they could see the left indicator.
However if I were already stopped and there was room to turn left I wouldnt use it as they could not see it anyway.

However if I was stopped at a juncion with no indicator on already there must be pleanty of visability so I would have already indicated left. Ahh the dilema. Basically it comes down to if I thought they actually could see it before I got to the junction or not.

Hmmm well that was rambly. Though I would welcome any criticism from any more experienced peps about my reasoning and how that would be viewed.

[rlmr]

...signal... I decided that I wouldn't....

Chris this post is growing arms and legs and everyone makes points with greater or lesser validity based on their interpretation of the circumstances you describe. However being attentive to the circumstances you describe and taking them to be accurate... You were correct .

regards,

Rennie

[Lynne]

Similarly, if I'm stopped behind an obstruction on my side of the road to let oncoming traffic through I'll put a right hand signal on. Several times I've seen vehicles approaching from behind assessing the situation badly and overtaking a waiting car into the path of the oncoming traffic.

Off on a tangent now, yes same here, with lots of narrow, busy roads with plenty of parked vehicles too.

However I find this signal helpful to me also as an ' oncoming vehicle' too; that, with positioning and reduction of speed can let me know earlier that you in the opposite direction are giving way. (It can confuse llearners at first .. they take it as you are moving out straight away until explained!)

[James]

Ive just realised the original post talks about indicating left whilst traffic comes from the right... I missed this so disregard my posts. I thought you wanted to turn right! I never read things properly.

[ScoobyChris]

Thanks for all the comments. I agree with signalling initially on the approach if visibility isn't good enough to see into the major road and then cancelling it if it won't benefit anyone, but in this case there was a good amount of visibility in all directions on the approach.

Chris

[TripleS]

Many years ago I remember somebody suggesting that if a car is really well driven in terms of speed, speed changes, positioning etc., you can tell what the driver is going to do even if they don't signal their intentions.

I'm not proposing that we all start operating on that basis, but the notion did seem to have some merit up to a point.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Lady Godiva]

Thanks for all the comments. I agree with signalling initially on the approach if visibility isn't good enough to see into the major road and then cancelling it if it won't benefit anyone, but in this case there was a good amount of visibility in all directions on the approach.

Chris

Chris - for what it's worth, i'm with RLMR on this, in that you were definitely right not to signal in the situation you described.

HOWEVER, I disagree with your comment above. Rather than signal in case you need it but then take it off if you don't, why not wait until you definitely need it, and then put it on.

The problem with signalling on the approach to a hazard just in case there is someone there that sees it, is that it is already on when they see it (if that makes sense). They may not know if it is a deliberate signal, or left on accidentally. If you see the road user and THEN put it on, they can be certain (as much as you ever can be) that you intended it.

For example, if i came over a crest and there isa side turning ahead that has a car in, if the signal is already on, it may be accidental. It in comes on as I approach, it suggests that it was deliberately put on to show me his intention.

Hope that makes sense, and that it is not so contentious that i end up giving up driving altogether.

Regards
Sally

[7db]

I don't think it's as black and white as folks suggest. The real question is why not signal? The usual reasons are:-
- It requires a cockpit action, when inaction might suffice
- It might confuse
- It shows / encourages sloppy thinking/observation

Let's assume the third is not an issue as we're all observing perfectly, and not needing to show off (and if we are, we'll simply give commentary to the following thinking).

If there's a chance that a signal *might* need to be given through the hazard, then it's a question of when it might be given. Ideally this will be when you have most spare hands -- often early on. If you have a loss of vision and there's high / likely traffic density, who might benefit from the signal, then you might find yourself needing to signal when your hand might be better used steering. I find that in town traffic, entering blind T-junctions, I almost always signal early, even when there's noone around, as it is sometimes useful once I'm part way into peeping and creeping.

Early on in my advanced driving, I tried willfully never to signal when it wasn't necessary - because it's good to show off that you've observed so well that you didn't need the signal. I found myself giving too many type II errors (not signalling when I should) in eradicating the type I errors (signalling when I needn't). For me, the pendulum is swinging back.

Obviously if there is potential confusion arising, then you need to be more conservative in your choices.

* * *

In the OP, there was little chance for confusion. It was a high density traffic situation (urban). There was a loss of vision and a need to paise whilst traffic situation developed. There was a real chance of traffic wanting a signal (ie appearing from the left) during the manouvre, so an early signal would have been useful.

On the downside, there was noone to confuse, and no cost to signalling early as the hand was free on appraoch to the junction (where you had to stop).

[rlmr]

7db,

It makes little difference if a "7" driver signals or not...



...as they will suffer from the same problem I experience on my pedal cycle, motorcycle or MG midget... other drivers do not see the vehicle let alone the signal .

Rennie