Driving with 'sparkle'

[zadocbrown]

Careful explanation:

. . . you use all of the capability . . . it does involve 100% throttle

Serious Q: why no 'half measures'?

Serious A: why, if you could use full throttle, wouldn't you? You've spent a lot of money on your steed to only as a matter of routine use 50% of it.

I guess it depends on the car. I use an awful lot of 100% throttle in my other half's car; not so much in mine as it wouldn't be proportional or safe in many situations....

[TripleS]

A bit back I thought you wanted to see all the performance being used, with a good solid press-on drive (within the limits of safety etc.) and now you seem to want it on a part-time basis only.

So, either I'm being a bit thick (which might well be the case), or you need to do some more careful explaining.

Careful explanation:

When you decide that acceleration is the appropriate thing to do, then you use all of the capability of the car in order to deliver that. That doesn't necessarily involve dropping to the lowest usable gear but it does involve 100% throttle as early as can be achieved within the limits of traction and smoothness (I guess my answer to Waremark regarding all 510 horses is that the limits of smoothness preclude 100% throttle in lower gears).

Often the bit that shows sparkle is making that decision early and appropriately.

OK, thanks for that, Dave. I guess part of the difficulty here is that we're talking about different situations.

On the one hand you are, I imagine, talking about drives where you're out with fellow HPC members or drivers of that quality, and it's like you're doing demonstration drives for each other, or conducting some kind of assessment or test. In that case you will no doubt be looking for a fairly full exploitation of car capabilities and driver skills. That's fine, I can see that being great fun and I wouldn't seek to criticise it.

On the other hand, I was talking about the situation where I might go out on my own in the car (they still allow me to do that ) in which case I will not be attempting to drive in a way that will please or impress others: I would simply drive in the style that I wish to deploy at that time, which can be anything between very exuberant, or very leisurely - the sort of thing that would keep all but the most nervous of passengers completely comfortable and free from anxiety. It will depend on the nature and purpose of the journey, and my mood at the time.

What I have often had difficulty accepting is the proposition that if you are any kind of driving enthusiast, aiming to be a good driver or an 'advanced' driver, then a high level of safe progress should be sought all the time: apparently because this is what 'advanced' drivers should do: always! Normal, leisurely driving should simply not be done.

Apologies to you if I am still misunderstanding you. It's maybe nothing more than individual preferences in rather different situations.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[jcochrane]

Hi Dave SSS. What you might call an HPC drive is for me, and I think some others,
normal every day driving rather than something turned on or off for fellow members. However I may drive, out of the norm, for some passengers eg my wife who even finds 70mph on a quiet motorway uncomfortable.

[Horse]

Often the bit that shows sparkle is making that decision early and appropriately.

What I have often had difficulty accepting is the proposition that if you are any kind of driving enthusiast, aiming to be a good driver or an 'advanced' driver, then a high level of safe progress should be sought all the time: apparently because this is what 'advanced' drivers should do: always! Normal, leisurely driving should simply not be done.

I find it's useful to set myself challenges - that was part of the inspiration for the 'Games' - and, usually, that for me is 'smoothness'.

Although, since a week ago, it's getting the braking done sooner and using the throttle earlier . . . Damn these AD days out . . .

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Around every corner lies a new challenge ...

[waremark]

"What I have often had difficulty accepting is the proposition that if you are any kind of driving enthusiast, aiming to be a good driver or an 'advanced' driver, then a high level of safe progress should be sought all the time: apparently because this is what 'advanced' drivers should do: always! Normal, leisurely driving should simply not be done.

Apologies to you if I am still misunderstanding you. It's maybe nothing more than individual preferences in rather different situations.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Last edited by TripleS on Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TripleS"

Referring to the GDE matrix, it is part of my value system that I am always trying to drive well, and my personal model of good driving includes making good progress. I am not sure what your 'normal leisurely driving' looks like, but it is possible that I would see it as dawdling. I also try to drive smoothly and with sympathy for both car and passengers, so the good progress which I try to achieve is quite different from maximum safe progress - and at different times I attach different weights to the imperative of good progress. Back to what I posted a few days ago - assessment of sparkle is very subjective.

[Horse]

Around every corner lies a new challenge ...

No, a few yards earlier . . .

[TripleS]

When you decide that acceleration is the appropriate thing to do, then you use all of the capability of the car in order to deliver that.

Why? It may well be your preference to do it, and you may prefer others to do it when you're being driven by them, and maybe many of your peers will prefer to do it like that; but why should the rest of us not feel free to decide for ourselves how much acceleration to use? I would have thought it ought to be our freedom to choose.

That doesn't necessarily involve dropping to the lowest usable gear but it does involve 100% throttle as early as can be achieved within the limits of traction and smoothness (I guess my answer to Waremark regarding all 510 horses is that the limits of smoothness preclude 100% throttle in lower gears).

Well I expect you'll want reasonable smoothness in the transition from zero throttle to full throttle, and vice versa; but it is beginning to sound a bit 'all or nothing' to me, and that doesn't sound to be a good recipe for a good positive, but smooth and flowing, sort of progress overall.

Often the bit that shows sparkle is making that decision early and appropriately.

OK, I can see that it is highly desirable that good decisions are made as early as possible, rather than bumbling about in a state of uncertainty.

I shall of course continue to give consideration to what you and others are saying, but I'm still having some doubts about this seemingly prescriptive behaviour being expected at all times from any who aspire to being good or 'advanced' drivers. It does appear to be taking away some of our freedom to vary things - for whatever reason.

[TripleS]

Careful explanation:

When you decide that acceleration is the appropriate thing to do, then you use all of the capability of the car in order to deliver that. That doesn't necessarily involve dropping to the lowest usable gear but it does involve 100% throttle as early as can be achieved within the limits of traction and smoothness (I guess my answer to Waremark regarding all 510 horses is that the limits of smoothness preclude 100% throttle in lower gears).

Often the bit that shows sparkle is making that decision early and appropriately.

I think this is a good point and one rarely raised. I've experienced some terribly uncomfortable rides where a lowish gear and partial throttle are used, particularly in a more powerful car. So much better to gear up and 100% throttle. Much smoother delivery of power and usually means one less (or more) gear change between hazards and a far better way to manage acceleration. Also eliminates that "relentlessness" feel that, as a passenger, I dislike and find very tiring. Technique can also work well in less powerful cars.

Yes, John, I can appreciate that. With a powerful car, any clumsiness with the use of the throttle pedal in low gears will surely give uncomfortable travel, whereas the use of a higher gear, where the acceleration is bound to be less brutal, will not require as much delicacy and finesse from the driver.

[TripleS]

Careful explanation:

. . . you use all of the capability . . . it does involve 100% throttle

Serious Q: why no 'half measures'?

Can't speak for SD but where two bends are very close together I may not always have time/distance to manage the transition and get my foot right down. In these cases, after transition, I set the throttle part way at a point a little further than would be required to cruise at the maximum speed possible between the bends so to allow easing back on the throttle as I reach this speed and then all the way off to reduce the speed for the upcoming bend. The easing back and then off being in a continuous smooth action. Not sure how well I've explained this but perhaps next time we drive together I'll try and talk through what I do. In most cases though it is possible to get the foot fully down after transition with a little practice.

I don't know if others do this but it works for me.

Well there again, I wouldn't necessarily seek (as standard procedure) to apply full throttle between the bends, and certainly not if they were relatively close together. If you're out to achieve maximum safe progress, of course it becomes more appropriate, but with most cars you'd be well over the NSL on any quickish road. Hell, even with 90 bhp I could, in many cases, reach NSL plus 50-60% if I were to forget to be law abiding, but usually I'm more interested in a decent rate of progress, but achieved smoothly and economically. Huh, must be getting old, I guess.

[TripleS]

Careful explanation:

. . . you use all of the capability . . . it does involve 100% throttle

Serious Q: why no 'half measures'?

Serious A: why, if you could use full throttle, wouldn't you? You've spent a lot of money on your steed to only as a matter of routine use 50% of it.

Ah, but this matter of routine doesn't entirely exclude the possibility of doing things differently when we're in a more playful mood. I ain't going to drive like Miss Daisy all the time, but ah sure as hell am going to do it some of the time.

But you're right, I did spend a lot of money on my steed, so I'll enjoy it as best I can, my way. After all, it cost about £9,000 to change to this car 13 years ago.

Never mind, I'll see if I can help you out (or more likely try your patience) with another post or two, then I'm going to have to go for a lie down.

[TripleS]

Why, if you could use full throttle, wouldn't you? You've spent a lot of money on your steed to only as a matter of routine use 50% of it.

I was wondering whether it was some sort of performance/economy/engineering/balance/traction thing, not 'fun' . . .

Oh, it'll be fun right enough. It's probably everything you mention, apart from economy. They leave the economy bit for me. I'm glad I'm left with something!

[TripleS]

I guess I don't always, or even often, have to use full throttle in order to appreciate having it available. In relation to gears, I was driving an enjoyable twisty today, and leaving the car in 4th over quite a wide speed range, which gave a good compromise between performance and smoothness. If you accelerate hard in lower gears you risk getting in trouble frighteningly quickly.

Not with my motor, you don't! Well not unless we're got ice and snow underfoot. Cue somebody coming along and saying I ought to get rid of these 'summer tyres.'

But I do agree with what you say about the satisfaction of knowing something is available to you, to be exploited and enjoyed when it is safely doable, and you feel in the mood for it, and you're pretty sure you ain't going to get nicked for it.

[TripleS]

Possibly (though I am not certain of this) for certain types of advanced test you might (for example) be expected to exit a bend, then accelerate very positively (or at full throttle) all the way to the point where you need to start braking for the next bend. That, I suppose, is making maximum progress, and I'm not going to keep adding the rider about it being subject to safety being maintained.

I can tell you confidently that such a level of progress is not required for IAM (up to and including Masters Distinction), Rospa (up to and including Gold), or HPC (up to and including Gold). I have been told that it is not required even for police advanced. I am not saying that maximum safe and legal progress would not be accepted in those states, but I am saying with certainty that it is not required. Some level of positive acceleration is certanly required, but it is not maximum acceleration, and it is not up to the point at which maximum braking is required for the next hazard.

Well OK, Mark, thanks for that.

So, it looks as if it mainly leaves SD, plus one or two others masquerading as hooligans, as being the WOT enthusiasts.

[TripleS]

Hi Dave SSS. What you might call an HPC drive is for me, and I think some others, normal every day driving rather than something turned on or off for fellow members. However I may drive, out of the norm, for some passengers eg my wife who even finds 70mph on a quiet motorway uncomfortable.

Oh, that last bit is surprising: is she a nervous passenger?

I'm very fortunate in that respect. Eileen has been travelling around with me for above 53 years, and she's never shown any sign of being concerned about what I get up to. Actually, just thinking about it; given my general attitude and approach to driving, it could have been a bit of a problem had she been an anti-speed type.