Road positioning, cyclist ahead

[sussex2]

This is how it can all end if people will not keep their tempers:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9065636. ... ony_Magdi/

[GJD]

Both as bad as each other.

I agree with you that this is one of those times where the best thing to do is nothing, as borne out by the subsequent events in the video.

However, I don't agree with you that they were both as bad as each other, and I hope that the police don't take that view either. That driver needs not to be on the road for a while and to reflect on his attitude.

The whole thing culminated in some punching. I imagine that was probably the most serious offence actually committed in legal terms, which is presumably what the police will be concerned with.

Nobody would view what the driver did as OK, but some people might view the cyclist's decision to engage with the driver as OK, or at least understandable. I feel very strongly that showing any tolerance for the cyclist's response is hugely counter-productive - completely incompatible with the idea of promoting a co-operative attitude amongst all road users. In my view both of them can be held up as excellent examples of utterly unacceptable behaviour.

[jont]

Both as bad as each other.

I agree with you that this is one of those times where the best thing to do is nothing, as borne out by the subsequent events in the video.

However, I don't agree with you that they were both as bad as each other, and I hope that the police don't take that view either. That driver needs not to be on the road for a while and to reflect on his attitude.

The whole thing culminated in some punching. I imagine that was probably the most serious offence actually committed in legal terms, which is presumably what the police will be concerned with.

Nobody would view what the driver did as OK, but some people might view the cyclist's decision to engage with the driver as OK, or at least understandable. I feel very strongly that showing any tolerance for the cyclist's response is hugely counter-productive - completely incompatible with the idea of promoting a co-operative attitude amongst all road users. In my view both of them can be held up as excellent examples of utterly unacceptable behaviour.

But what are cyclists supposed to do? There appears to be no interest in enforcing road areas set up specifically for their safety - for instance why are there no advanced stop box cameras (like yellow box junction cameras), or cycle lane cameras? (as seen with bus lanes). It's not much use claiming the moral high ground when you're under the wheels of a car.

In a similar vein, I'd like to see far more cyclists prosecuted for offences such as cycling on pavements and jumping red lights. Then again, I'd also like to see local authorities held to account when the cycling facilities they "provide" are entirely unsuitable and inadequate

/actually, I'd rather see none of the above needing to be enforced because people play nicely, but society seems to be wanting ever more enforcement of rules.

[Custom24]

The whole thing culminated in some punching. I imagine that was probably the most serious offence actually committed in legal terms, which is presumably what the police will be concerned with.

I'd imagine they will also be interested to some extent in the driver driving over the foot, and perhaps even in the initial offence of encroaching on the ASL.

As for the punching, I've not watched the video again, but I don't remember it showing the cyclist punching, just using some choice language on the second encounter. I doubt the police will be interested in the language.

I'll have to think some more on your underlying points about co-operation on the road and how best to foster it, because too much chin rubbing at work gets me in trouble.

[GJD]

But what are cyclists supposed to do?

As I said - keep calm and carry on. Like all the cyclists in that clip who didn't back up to talk to the driver and didn't end up in a fight.

It's not a cyclist thing - regardless of your chosen mode of transport, engaging with another road user on a personal level in a confrontational manner like that should not be viewed as acceptable behaviour.

[michael769]

As I said - keep calm and carry on. Like all the cyclists in that clip who didn't back up to talk to the driver and didn't end up in a fight.

I have to agree with this. Getting into altercations with total strangers ultimately cannot end well. Although this one resulted in an assault, people have been knifed and even shot in roadside altercations in the past, and not just cyclists, this type of fate befalls pedestrians and even other drivers too.

Getting involved like this is, is taking a stupid risk. No matter how wrong the violence is it does not make the victim's injuries any less serious.

I do not in any way condone the driver's conduct which was unacceptable from the start, but frankly the cyclist picked the wrong person to mouth off to and paid the inevitable consequence of that.

Having said that I am reluctant to outright condemn the cyclist. What he did was stupid and set a poor example for his fellow cyclists, but it's not exactly crime of the century and certainly did not justify an assault.

[GJD]

The whole thing culminated in some punching. I imagine that was probably the most serious offence actually committed in legal terms, which is presumably what the police will be concerned with.

I'd imagine they will also be interested to some extent in the driver driving over the foot, and perhaps even in the initial offence of encroaching on the ASL.

As for the punching, I've not watched the video again, but I don't remember it showing the cyclist punching, just using some choice language on the second encounter. I doubt the police will be interested in the language.

I doubt it too. To be clear, I'm not saying I think the cyclist did anything to interest the police - just that I think his reaction was very, very wrong and I therefore have no sympathy for him.

The link to the video's stopped working for me, but unless the headline's lying there was definitely punching (by the driver): "Shocking Road Rage Video Shows Driver Punching Cyclist In Central London" and if they feel they can go after the driver for anything, they might as well go after him for everything including the initial stop line offence.

[sussex2]

I've looked at that video several times and I am beginning to get a suspicion (only that) the whole thing is staged.

[7db]

It wasn't the driver who did the punching.

[GJD]

It wasn't the driver who did the punching.

I saw some suggestion in the other place that it was the passenger rather than the driver but I don't know if it was conclusively clear from the video. Perhaps there were three arses.

[TripleS]

It wasn't the driver who did the punching.

I saw some suggestion in the other place that it was the passenger rather than the driver but I don't know if it was conclusively clear from the video. Perhaps there were three arses.

I think it was a passenger from the RH rear seat.

Anyhow, somebody on PH offered the view that this ASL system, and the "cyclists' box" at the front of the queue, has inadvertently worsened relations between drivers and cyclists, and I do think there is something in that.

No doubt these measures were introduced in order to provide better safety for cyclists, and they might be quite effective in achieving that. On the other hand it can look like preferential treatment for cyclists, encouraging them to assemble at the front of the queue, ahead of the traffic. In practical terms, drivers are unlikely to be seriously disadvantaged by this, but the psychological effect on them is, I would say, inescapable, and they may become more 'anti-cyclist' as a result. This is not what's needed. What's needed is the promotion of more tolerance and goodwill amongst the various road user groups, and I don't think sufficient is being done in that regard.

[revian]

encouraging them to assemble at the front of the queue,

I cycle but in the quieter places of home or off road on holiday... But the pictures of London (eg) seem to show a wide row of cyclists on the 'start line' with the problems (real or imagined) referred to. Is the ASL in its current form the best form? Would a protected Lane without spreading it across the road encourage a safer flow?

[MGF]

...Know that you're the better person if that helps...

Your strong point.

[Custom24]

What's needed is the promotion of more tolerance and goodwill amongst the various road user groups, and I don't think sufficient is being done in that regard.

How would you do that?

My suggestion would be to encourage more people to cycle. My attitude towards cyclists when I'm in the driver seat has become a lot more sympathetic since I started cycling in earnest a couple of years ago.

Mind you, I can only speak for myself. I was already quite tolerant of them in the first place.

[fungus]

Would a protected Lane without spreading it across the road encourage a safer flow?

Quite possibly, provided that it continues into the road ahead.

There does seem to be a type of cyclist who seems to go out of their way to cause aggravation to motorists though, just as some motorists pay little regard to the needs of other road users. I experienced three such cyclists a few years ago whilst driving through Wareham, a small market town in SE Dorset. The road is too narrow to overtake going up hill into the town from the north, but as the road levels out it widens and there is enough room to overtake a cyclist, but these three had different ideas. As the road widened they pulled up three abreast blocking any attempt by a motorist to overtake them. They continued to ride in this fashion through the town until the speed limit changed to 40 at the southern end of the town. In fact at the traffic lights 3/4 of the way through the town they took ages to get going as they were talking. To me, this was a blatant attempt to cause annoyance.

There was a letter in the local paper a couple of years ago from a couple who had been pulled in by the police for riding two abreast through one of the busier roads in Bournemouth. They were quite adamant that it was their right to ride two abreast, and that the officer was in the wrong to warn them that it contravenes the Highway Code.