Effective steering

[WhoseGeneration]

I think you misunderstand. Nobody is advocating this as a normal technique (road or track). It is a damage limitation strategy in the event that it goes seriously tits up.

I'm not wanting to start an argument but I had thought I did understand and said "last resort".

[Gareth]

I think you misunderstand. Nobody is advocating this as a normal technique (road or track). It is a damage limitation strategy in the event that it goes seriously tits up.

I'm not wanting to start an argument but I had thought I did understand and said "last resort".

The initial words in your post gave the disapproving impression that we shouldn't even be discussing such ideas. If you hadn't wanted to convey that, you could've put it better.

[kfae8959]

Letting go of the wheel and letting the self-aligning torque set the steering to the recovery angle is ridiculously effective and removes any human error in setting the angle and any human input making the steering jerky.

Are you suggesting that the wheels will align to the direction of the skid? I hadn't considered that and it was not suggested on the course. I can't remember what the instructor did.

Try it next time you get the opportunity - it takes courage to give it a go, but letting go of the steering wheel and letting the engineering sort it out works a treat. Equally, letting go of the wheel then grabbing it again while the car is still fishtailing fairly reliably causes a spin.

David

[Gareth]

What is the alternative? Hand crossing, equally frowned upon, was very jerky. PP impossibly more so.

Letting go of the wheel and letting the self-aligning torque set the steering to the recovery angle is ridiculously effective and removes any human error in setting the angle and any human input making the steering jerky.

Does the effectiveness depend on the degree of self-centring built into the front suspension geometry?

[sussex2]

No, it's nothing to do with the caster angle built into the car, but the intrinsic nature of tyres to have the point where the tyre force is generated away from the centre of the contact patch. Letting go of the steering wheel means that the tyre tries to turn itself back towards the point of minimum energy generation. That this just happens to be the correct corrective steering angle is pure serendipity...

As Mr B pointed out this is a two stage process: firstly learning to let go of the wheel and then learning not to grab hold of it again. It's a bit like training people to use ABS effectively by letting go of the steering wheel and not to grab it because the vibration looks horribly like steering.

And how many people to this day release pressure on the brake when ABS kicks in

I wonder who (aside ourselves of course ) would have the presence of mind to do this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorclanger/2356585018/

[fungus]

A large number... sadly most of them come off the brakes to do so.

That's why I want pupils to activate the ABS when practicing emergency stops, so that they know what the system feels like when activated. I had a pupil a few years ago who was told by a previous instructor that she shouldn't activate the ABS

[sussex2]

A large number... sadly most of them come off the brakes to do so.

That's why I want pupils to activate the ABS when practicing emergency stops, so that they know what the system feels like when activated. I had a pupil a few years ago who was told by a previous instructor that she shouldn't activate the ABS

Do the DSA still require an emergency stop in the basic test? If so what is their take on ABS? I'd be pleased to know as an old timer

[vonhosen]

A large number... sadly most of them come off the brakes to do so.

That's why I want pupils to activate the ABS when practicing emergency stops, so that they know what the system feels like when activated. I had a pupil a few years ago who was told by a previous instructor that she shouldn't activate the ABS

Do the DSA still require an emergency stop in the basic test? If so what is their take on ABS? I'd be pleased to know as an old timer

One in 3 car tests should have an emergency stop (chosen at random).
ABS on test vehicle is fine & it deploying on emergency stop is fine.

[Astraist]

At that time the instructors would teach to let every thing go letting the car settle in its own way don't touch brakes or steering. Sadly, one year when I went over, earlier that same week someone was killed during training for not following that advice.

This advice was for racing on oval speedways and not necessarily applicable to road driving.

Exactly. This is because the seating position in an oval-track car puts the driver much closer to the steering wheel than usual on public roads or race tracks. This means that the hands are not free to quickly apply a lot of steering input, not to mention the very high speeds, so letting go of the wheel would be better. Obviously not the normal driving technique.

The advice to lock all four wheels is more relevant to circuits. It helps to wipe off speed very quickly and makes you go off of the track with two wheels at a time (instead of just one) so the chance of rolling over is reduced. Also, it makes you move out of the racing line so you are not putting yourself and other drivers at risk of a collision.

[jcochrane]

At that time the instructors would teach to let every thing go letting the car settle in its own way don't touch brakes or steering. Sadly, one year when I went over, earlier that same week someone was killed during training for not following that advice.

This advice was for racing on oval speedways and not necessarily applicable to road driving.

Exactly. This is because the seating position in an oval-track car puts the driver much closer to the steering wheel than usual on public roads or race tracks. This means that the hands are not free to quickly apply a lot of steering input, not to mention the very high speeds, so letting go of the wheel would be better. Obviously not the normal driving technique.

The advice to lock all four wheels is more relevant to circuits. It helps to wipe off speed very quickly and makes you go off of the track with two wheels at a time (instead of just one) so the chance of rolling over is reduced. Also, it makes you move out of the racing line so you are not putting yourself and other drivers at risk of a collision.

Right, that clears it up. When you mentioned NASCAR I thought oval racing.

I agree with you about action to take if racing on a circuit in the same car.

[Kimosabe]

Nice post, Astraist... although I'm tempted to describe it a full-on an article . Thanks. You'd be hard pushed to find anything in there to disagree with.

...take one hand off the wheel while operating a control, which is necessary from the 10-2 PP position

I don't want to turn this thread into another 20 page monster, but why to you believe P-P has to be done from
10-2 and not 9-3 (3:15)? ...or have I misunderstood that.

Ditto the avoidance of another monster steering thread.

It's not that I believe it has to be done that way but 10-2PP is the only steering input that is not turned into a dogmatic 'you're out of control and doing it wrong' affront, by either of the IAM and RoADAR observers and one RoSPA examiner, that I have met. My RoADAR observer only did this because the examiner expected it; and from personally meeting the examiner I found that they expected nothing else, which is one reason for why I haven't taken the RoSPA test. I have never heard 3:15PP mentioned.

I have no issues with holding a steering wheel in whatever way best suits the person holding it as long as the usual AD SSS outcome provisos are fulfilled. There's a time and place for everything and there is more to steering inputs than 10-2PP, such as seating position. However, dropping and leading with the shoulder from the 10-2 position, is more efficient in the Pulling down of the wheel by using the weight of the arm when both adding and removing steering than it is from 3:15, which effectively gives you a lower quarter of the wheel to use. So for larger turns, I use PP and smaller outputs fixed because it suits me.

Does that answer your question?

[Astraist]

But when you apply Pull-Push you first reach for the top portion of the wheel, so your original hand position, whether quarter to three or ten and two, is irrelevant. I repeat that this thread is about the criteria by which an efficient steering input is measured as such. Your basic hand position relates more closely to a driver's seating position that his or hers steering method of choice.

Pull Push, as you practice it, is efficient because it allows to make large sub-inputs (take big bites of steering in each hand motion), use both hands symmetrically, keep both hands on the wheel and use the muscles quite effectively by keeping each hand on it's side of the steering.

Other steering methods compromise this latter advantage for the sake of even larger hand motions and other advantages. Rotational and Predictive steering do that, and in my view that is a better compromise for an average road car.

However, If I am steering a big lorry where the top of the rim or it's opposite side is quite a reach, I would rather keep each hand on it's side and compromise for smaller hand motions and apply conventional Pull-Push. I would advise the same for very short drivers who might encounter this kind of reach problem in a road car.

[hir]

My RoADAR observer only did this because the examiner expected it [pull-push steering]; and from personally meeting the examiner I found that they expected nothing else, which is one reason for why I haven't taken the RoSPA test.

They all say that. Don't take any notice. Do the test, make sure that your steering is safe, accurate and with the car under complete control at all times, and the examiner won't say a thing.

Maybe, he might have a bit of a moan... along the lines of "I'd like to have seen a bit more pull-push". But, you can just ignore that as well.

My advice is just do it. Let them moan about the steering if they want to - who cares? Apart from that, you'll get an excellent assessment of the rest of your driving and an incentive to improve/maintain the standard of your driving ready for the re-test in three years time.

Be brave - do your own thing. Do what you believe in, not what some blinkered, misguided, Luddite wants you to do.

[Kimosabe]

Thank you kindly Mr Hir, that's very kind and supportive of you to say. A little support in the right places goes a long way and another AD friend recently said more or less the same thing as you, so it's on my list of things to do soon.

My thing is that I like to ace tests; it's a competitive game I play with myself and in many ways it's what drives me, without becoming obsessed with it of course... Ahem!

So i'm aware of some of the areas I need to improve in and i'd like to ace the RoSPA test by being the best I can be. I sometimes think a little therapy might help with this but i'm happy with my progress to date and i'm eager to keep on improving on that. So it's not me being pushy but eagerness that you'll notice. I don't doubt that i'll take the test sometime soon and get a good result but if it could be even better with a bit more practice, why ever not do just that? I always seek to have quality feedback from people I can learn from, when out on AD drives and i'm confident that i'll pass the test with an okay mark. The thing is, as you're now aware, I sort of don't do 'okay marks' and I already know a good few areas for immediate improvement. So my plan is to get those areas as straight as I reasonably can and until they're consistent in my normal drive, before taking the RoSPA test. I'll give you a shout before I do and you can also cross your fingers for me

We'll have to go for a drive sometime. You'll be glad to know that I have finally extracted the f****** Barry Manilow CD that was stuck in the player when I bought the car last year, so the MX5 has been made safe and I don't wear the blonde mullet wig or Elvis shades any more.... well at least not while driving but that's something else

Edited: To apologise for the minor derailment of the thread. It's still distantly related with the topic.