What do you do?

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby michael769 » Wed May 28, 2014 8:38 am


Astraist wrote:
That's good for pedestrians. But once you put an SUV or proper 4X4 in a collision with another, smaller, vehicle, more of the collision's overall energy will be absorbed in the opposite vehicle.



No it won't - this statement violates Newtons 3rd law of motion which tells us that any force that is imparted by a body affects the source equally.

The total energy output of both vehicles combined is released into both vehicles. The relative distribution of energy between them depends on the individual action and reaction force vectors, which are modified in modern vehicles by the impact absorption and distribution mechanisms built into them, and how the vehicles interact with their environment in the immediate aftermath.

In any event it is desirable that the energy is imparted into the vehicle and away from the occupants. A major element of the passenger safety cell concept is to direct energy into the vehicle's extremities and around the passenger cell rather than into the passengers.

The hypothesis that a small vehicle comes off worse in a collision has nothing to do with the larger vehicle imparting more energy and everything to do with the smaller vehicle being less strong and thus less able to absorb and redistribute the impact energies.

But event that view is also badly out of date as modern cars are considerable stronger and better at absorbing and redistributing impact as can be seen in this video where a small family car destroys the front of a much heavier and supposedly "safer" but also older Volvo:



it's not the size of the vehicle that matters, it's how it is all put together....

I spent close to 8 years investigating accidents, a large part of which involved studying and developing computer simulation systems to model and understand how both vehicles and people really behaved in collisions, and one of the first things you learn in that game is that everything that you think you know about collisions is completely and utterly flat out wrong. An experience that those motor engineers who work in this area that I spoke to confirmed that they had all shared.

Fortunately motor engineers prefer to use real data, tests and simulations to driver their work and not their supposed everyday "common sense". Had the industry relied on the latter we may well be still seeing the level of carnage that we saw in the 1970s and 80s albeit scaled up to match traffic growth.

If only the road safety "experts" that infest local and national roads authorities and the likes of BRAKE would learn the same thing casualties may well have been driven even closer to 0. But that is another story for another thread.

Though sometimes common sense can be right, You'd not want to be hit by a modern Volvo XC90:

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Postby Ancient » Wed May 28, 2014 10:11 am


Indeed, low car vs high car and the body of the higher car clearly rides up over the lower. They may be better than they were (I'll take your word for that) but they are also clearly not as good for third party safety as modern lower cars. As 'insanity' says, it's a vicious circle. In the OP the point raised about dazzle is simply another result of people choosing higher cars for their percieved safety, in this case having a greater tendency to dazzle other road users - which could be mitigated if the drivers cared enough to leave a greater following distance, but feeling 'safer' they don't.

Of course the way out of that circle is improved training which gives those who take it and those around them a better chance, but unfortunately as we know, that is not a popular choice.
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Postby Zebedee » Wed May 28, 2014 10:20 am


Thanks Michael, that's one of the most interesting posts I've read in a while here. Does anyone do this sort of work on motorcycle accidents?

michael769 wrote:I spent close to 8 years investigating accidents, a large part of which involved studying and developing computer simulation systems to model and understand how both vehicles and people really behaved in collisions, and one of the first things you learn in that game is that everything that you think you know about collisions is completely and utterly flat out wrong. An experience that those motor engineers who work in this area that I spoke to confirmed that they had all shared.

Fortunately motor engineers prefer to use real data, tests and simulations to driver their work and not their supposed everyday "common sense". Had the industry relied on the latter we may well be still seeing the level of carnage that we saw in the 1970s and 80s albeit scaled up to match traffic growth.


Interesting. Has real data has been used to improve bike kit? I suspect not. I've noticed almost no change in body armour over the last decade. The body armour in my clothing from 2004 (yes, I still wear some of it) is the same as new clothing on sale in 2014. That's rubbish! Why is there such glacial progress when it comes to bike clothing?
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Postby michael769 » Wed May 28, 2014 12:07 pm


StressedDave wrote: the energy absorbed by the body shells is divided in inverse proportion to mass.


Quite - which means the less massive vehicle absorbs less energy than the more massive one - the exact opposite of Astraists claim that would require the energy be distributed in direct proportion

But that assumes the force vectors are perpendicular, which is not always the case, something that CRASH-97 and it's successors takes into account via Trajectory Algorithms like SPIN-2(which allow some part of the collision forces to be dissipated as kinetic energy) via SPIN2, or as refined by the USAMC trajectory simulation introduced in CRASH3.

In terms of casualty risk what is important is not the energy released but how much of it is dissipated into the body of the crash victims, something that is determined as much by how much can be dissipated away from them as how much is produced by the collision (though clearly that remains very relevant).
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Postby fungus » Wed May 28, 2014 10:52 pm


StressedDave wrote:
michael769 wrote:
StressedDave wrote: the energy absorbed by the body shells is divided in inverse proportion to mass.


Quite - which means the less massive vehicle absorbs less energy than the more massive one - the exact opposite of Astraists claim that would require the energy be distributed in direct proportion


No, you've got it arse upwards - the lighter vehicle absorbs more of the energy: Energy absorbed = Total Energy x Mass of other vehicle / Mass of both vehicles.

FWIW (and I can see everyone else's eyes glazing over here), the trajectory simulation parts are used to determine actual impact speeds and CRASH and it's successors have always taken account of the point of impact and its effect on the effective masses due to offset impact forces. CRASH was always about determining the closing speed at point of impact. For those who like a good read, here's Terry Day's paper on how the algorithm works.

My work was solely based in the 'who can we prosecute for this accident' arena - we were less concerned by casualty causation save for using it as a ready reckoner when bits got torn off.


The only thing two experts will agree on is that the third is getting it wrong. :) :) :)
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Thu May 29, 2014 1:16 am


fungus wrote:The only thing two experts will agree on is that the third is getting it wrong. :) :) :)

Ain't that so?
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Thu May 29, 2014 12:10 pm


StressedDave wrote:Just remember the three definitions of an expert:

1. A has-been who is a drip under pressure
2. Someone who knows one thing more than you do
3. Someone from out of town (US only) :mrgreen:

Don't forget the 4th!
Someone who has a certificate for containing more hot air than the total amount of hot air found in all the balloons at the Bristol hot air balloon festival! :P
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Postby fungus » Thu May 29, 2014 8:23 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:
StressedDave wrote:Just remember the three definitions of an expert:

1. A has-been who is a drip under pressure
2. Someone who knows one thing more than you do
3. Someone from out of town (US only) :mrgreen:

Don't forget the 4th!
Someone who has a certificate for containing more hot air than the total amount of hot air found in all the balloons at the Bristol hot air balloon festival! :P


Ouch! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby cupraray » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:31 pm


TheInsanity1234 wrote:Out of curiosity, what do you do when someone is following you a bit closely, and their headlights appear to be quite bright.

How far do you stay back from someone while driving so you don't end up dazzling the driver in front with your headlights at night?

I've always thought that a courteous distance would be one where you don't get closer than the edge of your headlight spread on the road?

pull over and let them pass ....simple , you will learn
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Postby Kimosabe » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:44 pm


Some folk down my way start lobbing dogs if your rear bumper gets too close to their egos. Best to make any excuse to pull over or alter course to avoid such tailgaters.
A wise man once told me that "it depends". I sometimes agree.
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:26 pm


But if you've got local knowledge, and you know there's no laybys coming up, and no safe passing places coming up?
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Postby Kimosabe » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:17 pm


i'd either boot it (Ts&Cs apply) or wait for an appropriate place, indicate as if I am about to pull over, slow down and allow them to pass. Probably.
A wise man once told me that "it depends". I sometimes agree.
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:56 pm


Fair enough :)
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Postby Kimosabe » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:44 pm


PS: what's the arm signal for 'go on then, if you really must' ? Humourous bumper stickers and a big Brake sticker of motoring doom in the rear window surely resolves such issues. Surely. :shock:
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Postby TheInsanity1234 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 pm


Kimosabe wrote:PS: what's the arm signal for 'go on then, if you really must' ? Humourous bumper stickers and a big Brake sticker of motoring doom in the rear window surely resolves such issues. Surely. :shock:

Hand out of the window rotating forwards in a circular fashion?
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